Three TF 4th Bttn cap badges

[wardog]

I welcome all opinions Matti and didn't think you negative. Keen as usual to hear others thoughts on badges. Would be interested to see if there is a more 'standard' badge to posts 17 and 18. Cheers, Paul. PS I know little of officers badges, the 10th Middlesex with loops isn't a collar is it?

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by wardog

I welcome all opinions Matti and didn't think you negative. Keen as usual to hear others thoughts on badges. Would be interested to see if there is a more 'standard' badge to posts 17 and 18. Cheers, Paul.

I'm in two minds about both the 10th Middlesex but to dismiss them out of hand would go against my stance on TA, VB, Pals & Militia badges not being made using the same methods, or of the same quality (in some cases) as the regulars'. There are always features I'd like to see but aren't always there, but a badge is dumped if one comes about with them.

I prefer the second one which may be an officers version although at the same time it nags me as the rear has similarities with many an 18th Middlesex. I need to study it closer.

Attached my one, I've had a few of these and have all been identical.

[wardog]

Thanks Keith for the pictures of your 10th. I feel much the same- unsure of both mine. 1st is a bit primative. The second, well, the WM parts seem to have a silver content, so not sure what thats all about. I'm not too hot with a camera but I can post some more pictures in different light if you like. Regards, Paul.

[Keith Blakeman]

A search around some dealer sites will show up some real oddities with 10th Middx. You get those with the zig zag scroll which may or may not be genuine and they appear in Churchill's collar book, but there are also those terrible Sportsmans & 18th Middlesex 'Pals' which are cast but of a high quaility with fine fretting to the reversed 3 at times featuring a Firmin stamp. It's a really hard one to validate.

[orasot]

Hi All, Just thought I'd add some pics of mine to this thread, tagged on scroll & overlaid for the 7,8,9th Battns, plus a 10th Battn. sadly, 2 of them have a bit of the ich dien missing !!

Here's my Dorset one too, I'd like to see some other examples of this one. It has a bit of ghosting on the MA part of the tablet, none visible on the rest. I'm told that as these only had the sphinx part to change, the letters on the die were simply filled in to stamp these out, a bit of overfilling leading to the oversized faint MA ?? ( or rubbed down for the reverse part of the die ! ) Cheers, Wilf.

[wardog]

Good pictures Wilf and interesting to see the sweat holes on your Middlesex badges. -or are the holes on the 10th one part of the damage? Regards, Paul.

[orasot]

Cheers Paul, Yes they are sweat holes on the 10th, the one with the overlay still attached has been slightly filled with braze so looks smaller than the other, Wilf.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by orasot

Here's my Dorset one too, I'd like to see some other examples of this one. It has a bit of ghosting on the MA part of the tablet, none visible on the rest. I'm told that as these only had the sphinx part to change, the letters on the die were simply filled in to stamp these out, a bit of overfilling leading to the oversized faint MA ?? ( or rubbed down for the reverse part of the die ! ) Cheers, Wilf.

I have a very similiar example with the sweat holes. I fear that they may have been erased after manufacture. I shall check mine against yours to see if they are the same die.

In addition there are some very bad fakes out there with later WW2 era badges with blanking plates and solder masking the Marabout as well.

Mine is of a similiar age but the shape and location of the brasing holes behind the castle is different. It appears to be different from yours suggesting that they are not ghost lettering from a die but erased.

[wardog]

Another 10th Middlesex to add similar to Keith's- post 17.

P1040334.jpg P1040336.jpg P1040337.jpg

[wardog]

What is the general opinion on TF badges and blank overlays to the battle honor- I have a 4th Dorsetshire like this I think highly likely to be a copy. Regards, Paul.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by wardog

What is the general opinion on TF badges and blank overlays to the battle honor- I have a 4th Dorsetshire like this I think highly likely to be a copy. Regards, Paul.

Paul,
I've been reading the 7th Hampshire thread with interest but with nothing to add, the badges I have are pretty much like yours although I have a looped nickel one with more detail and fretting out front to the front but the rear is not so crisp plus the metal is 'not quite right.'

What I have seen is an old 4th VB badge with a 7th scroll as an overlay, I have no doubt this is a correct early issue despite the fact the upper oval loop above the dog gauge doesn't lie between the tips of the laurels but is below with a gap between the leaves.

As for the 4th Dorsetshire, the only one I've ever liked is one I had which came with a medal group, looped and with a proper blank scroll, no overlays or erasing. Not to say the latter are incorrect, just what sits happily.

The reason I don't have it any longer is simple, TF badges are a minefield, too may not sure's and a few overly expensive missing ones, Black Watch, Durham, etc. I got within a few needed and then sold the lot.

[wardog]

Thanks Keith. Regards, Paul.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by wardog

What is the general opinion on TF badges and blank overlays to the battle honor- I have a 4th Dorsetshire like this I think highly likely to be a copy. Regards, Paul.

If by overlay you mean a plate put over the plinth then yes they are fakes. TF badges were made with blank scrolls but for what ever reason, some regular badges were erased by the TF soldiers at the time. However many have been 'done' since then!

[wardog]

With the 4th Dorsetshire- blank wm plinth- on reverse, GM part- battle honor "Marabout". Regards, Paul.

[Alan O]

So marabout erased rather than overlaid with a blanking plate?