the yorkshire regiment

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

A fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer.......thats a fact so please allow me to ask another question....

If these are indeed private purchase badges why is Gaunt using an old design with lugs rather than slider for a badge which every other manufacturer was assembling with slider?

I was lead to believe soldiers prefered the slider because it was easier to remove from the cap. Would a badge with lugs be a commerical success as a private purchase item?

Now if I was a Gaunts man and I had some old lugged stock but the WD now only wanted slidered ones, then I would offer them at a cheap price to the TF or a commercial supplier who were always looking for a good deal.

Alan

[Luke H]

Alan,

I would have thought given the date that these badges would have been produced to order and had lugs fitted in the place of sliders rather than being old/surplus stock existing with lugs. Given the time we're taking about I'd have guessed that Gaunt with the army (through official channels) desperate for large quantities of badges at the outbreak of war would use old stock badges immediately in an effort to cope as demand out strips production or even just for speed of dispatch. Almost in effect keeping some older stocks aside I don't believe would have happened. The Manchester Pals and a couple other examples show that these badges were produced intentionally with lugs it in stead of sliders so while your idea may well be true makes me think otherwise.

Luke

[Jibba Jabba]

I`m not sure there is such a thing as old Guant stock, I always thought that a particular number of badges were struck to fit a particular order. It makes little economic sense to strike buckets loads of badges for orders that the business might never receive.

It could be that the colonel of Manchster Pals decided upon badges with lugs, there are many other WW1 raised battalion badges with slider.

[Alan O]

Odd you mention that but there is a dealer in Somerset who wrote to Gaunt about surplus stock and has a letter from them stating that when Gaunt moved all it production to Bham, they found lots of old stock which they then sold off. It is common sense that any manufacturer would get an order for a set amount but not produce that exact number but would over run production. If any were rejected for poor quality then they would have some surplus and would not need to restart production again.

I doubt that this was a wartime badge but would be pre-war.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

Its interesting that in Keith Rawlings book he says that some badge dealers bought new badges directly from the manufacturers.

As for surplus at Gaunts, how would they know how many examples to put into surplus? With metal in such short supply during war time would they be allowed to store in quantity? I can only think that where suplus was found in serious quantity those were orders that for whatever reason did not leave Gaunts because they were no longer needed.

[harribobs]

hmmm

but remember Gaunts were one of a number of suppliers to the WD, they had been supplying various services with badges to order

we all know of the 'morale raising' but useless exercise in WW2 of metal collections but i cannot see a badge company being made to melt down their stock

for your interest, a page from the gaunt catalogue

[Jibba Jabba]

Its not about melting down badges its about the restriction of the flow of metals into the factories. If badge companies could order as much metal as they liked we wouldnt of seen the economy brass or plastic badges. So flow of metals into these organisations much of been of some concern to the war department.

[Alan O]

Again - WW1 economy all brass was nothing to do with metal shortages but shortening labour hours. This is fact in ACD records which have been shown on this forum.

Alan

[harribobs]

Gaunts themselves sold off their old stock FACT!

we shouldn't think of them as a bastion of badge conservation, sticking only to producing the patterns, they were a commercial company, their machines would be running everyday producing badges ( and a lot more) that they then had to sell

so what do you do with old stock ( and they had old stock) you sell it where and when you can



anyone want to place an order for a few of these )

[NorthStafford]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Many a time I've laughed as a dealer snaps up yet another of these rare and incorrect King's Crown patterns on ebay for next to nothing. This one may possibly be an unfinished reject as the voiding at the base of the A and cross hasn't been carried out.

According to Kipling and King a non voided badge with Imperial crown was worn,. (KK617)

[Jibba Jabba]

Let us just stand back an evaluate the sources. One hand written ACD Ledger that took probably a few minutes to write with little care, against the the lifes work of renowned expert Gaylor. The choice is yours.

[Luke H]

ACD Ledgers for me, lots of supposed 'facts' in this hobby are little more than ideas or rumours which have been circulated at one point or another amongst the collecting community. The ACD records are FACTUAL records of what the army ordered, and AGAIN WW1 brass economy badges were produced to SAVE TIME taken up by brazing and NOT due to the rumour of metal shortages.

Although Gaylor's experience is renowned at the end of the day he was a collector not a researcher which also explains other discrepancies in his writings.

Luke

[54Bty]

In my younger days I purchased badges direct from Gaunt's and Firmin's, they never really had what I wanted, but I was content to take what they had. Should have kept them all.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Let us just stand back an evaluate the sources. One hand written ACD Ledger that took probably a few minutes to write with little care, against the the lifes work of renowned expert Gaylor. The choice is yours.

ACD records are primary historical records- Gaylor sources are unsubstantiated second hand accounts he gathered as secreatry of a collectors association. One only has to read his book to see he was not always right - for example his Options for Change chapter states there are women cap badged to the Infantry - complete rubbish. There are women in the AGC in Infantry Bns wearing AGC badges. Also he shows Cardiff Pals and Tyneside Irish as cap badges - wrong - collar and shoulder title.

Having done some researcch for disertations etc involving both primary and secondary sources, I can safely say that Gaylor's book is not even that - it is a chatty book full of stories equivelent to 'a bloke in a pub told me' highly entertaining, interesting but not solid fact.

Alan

[KLR]

Let us just stand back an evaluate the sources. One hand written ACD Ledger that took probably a few minutes to write with little care, against the the lifes work of renowned expert Gaylor. The choice is yours.

I'm afraid this sort of nonsense is bad for my blood pressure.
I'll just go and get on with my own research thank you.