Irish Guards Embroidered Stars

[John Mulcahy]

I would appreciate any help with these.

Below are a pair of hand embroidered (wire) Irish Guards Stars. I had written them off as spurious items until I saw them in the Wyedean Weaving Catalogue. (This company recently was awarded a contract for badge supply)

http://www.wyedean.com/catalogue/tex...red_badges.php

Wyedean were very responsive to my enquiries, but they were not able to supply a NSN number to me to help me determine if these stars are used by the regiment. Their presence on the Wyedean catalogue gives me some hope that these may be genuine.

The stars themselves are 36.2mm, 43mm if one includes the dark blue backing.

I see them on e-bay from time to time described as Officers full dress collar badges (which they are not) and sometimes as senior ranks epaulette stars.

My own thought is that they well may be the senior ranks epaulette stars but I thought that these were woven directly onto the garment.

I do not think they are Officers beret stars (as the date is included on them) and thus not either Officers mess dress collars.

Can anyone throw any light on these?

thanks

John

[cbuehler]

I too have been wondering about these, having seen them available on ebay for sometime now.
Rank stars for the shoulder straps ( Foot Guards do not wear epps, knots or cords ) have never been directly embroidered, but sewn on. However, these are much too large.
Are they something for WO's ?

CB

[John Mulcahy]

CB

I agree with your comment regarding rank stars, these are not rank stars.

If they are genuine I should think that they are full dress shoulder (epaulette) stars for senior ranks. However Hodges claims that these are woven directly onto the epaulettes. However when describing the equivalent badges for the Grenadier Coldstream Scots & Welsh he does not claim them to be embroidered directly.


Below an image of the senior ranks shoulder star cropped from a larger image - the design appears near idential to me and the specific quetion I have is it provided as a seperate item to be sown onto the epaulette unlike the junior ranks & bandsmens star which is woven directly on (see below)

[Unknownsoldier]

I thought all guards regiments wore the same garter star?

Tom

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Unknownsoldier

I thought all guards regiments wore the same garter star?

Tom

Not talking Officers Rank Stars but a similar badge to the Cap badge worn on ORs shoulder straps, as those illustrated.

[cbuehler]

Hi John,
As far as I am aware, all Foot Guards OR's shoulder straps have always had the regimental insignia directly embroidered into the shoulder strap. Conversely, Officers rank stars or crowns were always a seperate item sewn onto the strap.
In full dress for the Foot Guards, junior officers (Lt. through Capt.) have a single row of gold emboidery around the edge of the strap; senior officers ( Maj. to Col. ) having a double row. There is and never was any difference in the size of the respective regimental rank stars for all officers.
The crowns as worn by Foot Guards in full dress and on the frock or No1 dress were, however, of slightly larger size than that worn by line officers, but I dont know if this is still the case today.
I believe the star in question must be intended for something else.

CB

[Unknownsoldier]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Not talking Officers Rank Stars but a similar badge to the Cap badge worn on ORs shoulder straps, as those illustrated.

Ahhh, sorry crossed wires :-(

Tom

[cbuehler]

Sorry, I have become confused here. I had thought the reference to "senior ranks" referred to officers and not Other Ranks.
I do think now that perhaps the stars in question may possibly be for WO's shoulder straps; in other words for RSM's or such.
Certainly not for ranks below WO as these are never in bullion wire emboidery.

CB

[engr9266]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Sorry, I have become confused here. I had thought the reference to "senior ranks" referred to officers and not Other Ranks.
I do think now that perhaps the stars in question may possibly be for WO's shoulder straps; in other words for RSM's or such.
Certainly not for ranks below WO as these are never in bullion wire emboidery.

CB

To me, just a poor old Royal Engineer SGT,"SENIOR RANKS" refer to SGT to WO 1 rank, After that came "OFFICER RANK"

[John Mulcahy]

That is correct senior ranks being Sgt to WO1.

The junior ranks (Gdsman, L Cpl & Cpl) have shoulder straps with the star worked in white threads as shown above. However Sgts and up have shoulder badges worked in gold & silver wire as they do in the other Guards regiments also.

As late as the 1990's these "senior ranks" shoulder stars were directly woven into the blue cloth of the epaulette. I wonder if they now are sewn on?

All comments and input gratefully received.

John

[irishhorse]

There is a pair of "IRISH GUARDS NCO's/SERGEANTS FULL DRESS EPAULETTES"
on ebay. These have these sow on stars, and not the embroidered type.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by irishhorse

There is a pair of "IRISH GUARDS NCO's/SERGEANTS FULL DRESS EPAULETTES"
on ebay. These have these sow on stars, and not the embroidered type.

I have seen these, but are they real? If I recall rightly the same source shows them as collar badges from time to time (I may be mistaken) which would be wrong, when I last checked in with my friends and relations in the regiment I was told that these were not used on the epaulette and that the stars were in fact still woven/embroidered into the epaulette. Kashket (I think my spelling is wrong) whom I believe supply the tunics also said when I asked them (18 mths ago)that the insignia was directly worked into the epaulette. As mentioned in the first post when I saw them on the Wyedean Weaving website I thought that they might be genuine.

With the 1st battalion now in Afghanistan my contacts have ceased temporarily.

IH do you have info. that states that the stars are now sew on?

[seanhath]

These are new pattern Irish Guards Officers stars.
They have replaced the smaller version where the shamrock section stands proud from the rest of the star.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by seanhath

These are new pattern Irish Guards Officers stars.
They have replaced the smaller version where the shamrock section stands proud from the rest of the star.

Thank you for the input, do you know in what year they were introduced?

John