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#1
27-11-11, 10:27 AM
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Devonshire Battalion - Which one please.
Would be very grateful for any assistance to establish which Battalion Band this is please.
The photo is marked 4th Bn Devons, Honiton 1906, Bandmaster Lowther. As it is dated 1906 it would appear that this is the 4th Volunteer Battalion but Bandmaster Lowther was, in fact, the Bandmaster of the 1st (Exeter and South Devon) Bn which became the 4th Territorial Bn in 1908. I don't know if the 4th (Volunteer) Bn were at an Annual Camp at Honiton in 1906 but the 1st (Exeter & South Devon) Bn definately were. In the front rank standing 2nd from left is a very elderly looking Sergeant who is possibly William Shepherd who retired in 1908 at the age of 75 after competing 53 years service with the Band of the 1st (Exeter & South Devon) Battalion. Although India General Service medals are being worn (possibly by Regular Bandsmen who had completed their time with the Colours and were on the Reserve) no Boer War medals are being worn. I have no idea where the 4th (Volunteer) Battalion were in the Boer War but the 1st (Exeter & South Devons) were in Jersey CI. I am assuming that the Card has been incorrectly captioned and that this is, in fact, the 1st (Exeter & South Devon) Bn. Is there anyway of identifying if this is the 4th Vol Bn or 1st (Exeter & South Devon) Bn from the uniforms please? Many thanks Peter Last edited by peter4447; 27-11-11 at 10:52 AM. 
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#2
27-11-11, 11:13 AM
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In 1881 the Cardwell/Childers reforms led to the 1st Devonshire (Exeter and South Devon) Rifle Volunteer Corps, becoming the 4th Volunteer Battalion of the Devonshire Regiment (taking its precedence after the 3rd Militia Battalion with the 1st and 2nd being Regular). In 1908 the Haldane Reforms that created the Territorial Force led to the 4th Volunteer Battalion becoming the 4th Territorial Force Battalion and I suspect that both 4th VB and 4th TF retained the Exeter and South Devon subtitle, even if 'unofficially' (they would have been very protective and proud of it). As the photo was taken in in 1906 it is clear that they were still 4th VB at that time. The head dress fits too, with the men all still wearing FSC that had been replaced in Regular Battalions by the Brodrick cap and all the staff serjeants are wearing the 1881 pattern Staff Cap, except for the man seated at centre, who has the new 1905 Pattern peaked forage cap. The title on the photo is correct, but some of the men will have been old enough to have served in the 1st Devon RVC before the title change (which may well have taken place after 1881, as the necessary changes took time to come about and did not all occur overnight, each unit had its own timetable - they were however, complete by the 1890s). Last edited by Toby Purcell; 27-11-11 at 12:14 PM.
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#3
27-11-11, 11:43 AM
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Hi Toby
Very many thanks indeed for your reply. I think what has completely thrown me over this is that when checking on the web about the 1908 changes, I found that its states that the 1st (Exeter & South Devon) Bn became the 4th Territorial Bn in 1908. It also states that there was a 4th Volunteer Bn in existance in 1906 which became the 7th (Cyclist) Bn in 1908 when the cyclist sections of the 3 volunteer battalions were formed into one unit. From your reply, therefore, I take it that the 1st (E & SD) Bn and the 4th VB Bn were one and the same and the the details on the web about the 4th VB becoming the 7th Bn have actually misled me. I am delighted with your reply because William Shepherd wrote his memoirs and these give a detailed history of the 1st (E & SD) Band spanning over 50 years. Many thanks indeed once again Peter
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#4
27-11-11, 12:10 PM
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The cyclists were 'detachments' in each of the three VBs that were then merged to form a single battalion, the 7th, in 1908. Just one of the cyclist detachments was provided by 4th VB and there lies the confusion. I recommend the table at the base of this link. You will see that there were 5 VBs in the Devons (but in common with most other regiments only three provided cyclist detachments, usually at company strength):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childers_Reforms Last edited by Toby Purcell; 27-11-11 at 12:19 PM.
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#5
27-11-11, 12:47 PM
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Once again my sincere thanks Toby for such a clear and concise reply which means I can now write up the history of the 4th Vol Band using William Shepherd's memoirs.
It really is great to belong to a site that has so many knowledgable and helpful members. Kind regards Peter4447 
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#6
27-11-11, 04:08 PM
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Something handy to bear in mind is that when modern writers talk about the Xth Bn [VF] BECOMING The Yth Bn [TF], and indeed the Nth Bn [Militia] BECOMING the Mth Bn [SR] in 1908, the process was certainly not that simple.
The Royal Warrants/ Army Orders "create" the Yth [TF] and the Mth [SR] but do not disband the old X and N, which were allowed to wither on the vine for a while. The ranks of the new battalions were filled by asking each man of the old to enlist, voluntarily, in the new. Many did, some slung their hook, so to speak. I am not sure about the process for officers. Among other complications, how the new units allotted regimental numbers has given number-crunchers like me, Graham Stewart, and Paul Nixon many a problem. But that is another story. Suffice to say that, on 1st April or thereabouts 1908 the old did not become the new "just like that".
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#7
27-11-11, 05:00 PM
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In the context of the OP's enquiry I did not feel the need to complicate matters any further than was necessary for him to understand matters relating to his photograph. I presume your elaboration is for his benefit, as you already know that I am familiar with the concept of what you have stated and, indeed, commented as such in the Victorian Wars Forum for a similar thread. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 21-06-12 at 11:23 AM.
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#8
19-06-12, 12:41 PM
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I am confused here. If the 4th Bn VB became the 4thTF in 1908, where did the 1-3rd VB Bns go?
Pre 1908: For the Regular Army the 1st and 2nd Bns were Regular. The 3rd Bn was the Militia bn. In addition to this were the VB Bns. Post 1908. The 1-2nd Bns remain Regular, 3rd is the reserve bn, 4th-7th are the TF. The 7th was the Cyclists. My question is if the 4th VB becomes the 4thTF and the 7th is a composite of VB coys which VB Bns' membership formed the 5th and 6th TF bns and how come they lost their seniority? This shows the TF in 1914. http://www.1914-1918.net/devons.htm Alan Last edited by Alan O; 19-06-12 at 12:54 PM.
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#9
19-06-12, 11:06 PM
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2nd RV - 2nd (Prince of Wales's) VB - 5th TA 3rd RV - 3rd VB - 4th TA 4th RV - 4th VB - 6th TA 5th RV - 5th (Hay Tor) VB - 5th TA Taken from Westlake's "Tracing The Rifle Volunteers".
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#10
20-06-12, 07:48 AM
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Keith
That confirms what I thought and conflicts with Toby's comment. The photo dates from 1906. 1RV became 1 VB who became 4th TF in 1908. The photo must have been taken after 1908 or the naming of it has been added 2 years after it was taken. Alan
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#11
21-06-12, 11:23 AM
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Personally I think it more likely that your second supposition is correct with the naming added latterly, as it seems unlikely that quite so many obsolete items of head dress would be worn after 1908, although nothing of course is impossible and the usual period allowed for 'wasting out' was 5 years. Hopefully Peter's original query has still been resolved by this joint effort by forum members. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 21-06-12 at 04:35 PM.
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