Unknown Welsh Regiment Badge - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

41st · #1 22-12-10, 09:28 PM

I could do with some help on this one please.
The top badge in the first photo is the 1908 pattern Officers' collar badge in silver (Churchill Ref: 1136). Whilst Churchill states that they were manufactured by Jennens, and I do have a pair marked to Jennens, this one is hallmarked for Firmins (F&S) in 1908.
The badge shown below is different in that it has a gilded overlay to the motto scroll.
There is no reference to this pattern in any books that I have and it has not been converted. The pin fixing on the back is original to the badge and there is no eveidence of any lugs having been cut off.
I'm leaning towards a Foreign Service Helmet badge for Officers, worn at a similar time to the ORs example shown below in the last photo and refered to as 1147 in Churchill.
It could of course be a sweetheart, but I don't think so.
Any ideas?

REMEVMBEA1 · #2 23-12-10, 07:16 AM

The motto says (roughly) Better death than disgrace.

GriffMJ · #3 23-12-10, 08:50 AM

I have just mounted a Royal Warwickshire Regiment collection for a friend..... he had a white metal cap badge with the same pin and clasp (thats shown on the badge above).... I took it to be a sweetheart....the quality of the badge was not the same as the cap badge?

REGIMENTAL MOTTO: "GWELL ANGAU NA CHYWILYDD" (Death Rather Than Dishonour)- adopted for the 41st by Lieut.-Col. Sir Edmund Keynton Williams in 1831. This is now also the motto of the Royal Regiment of Wales.

41st · #4 23-12-10, 10:35 AM

Gents, a quick look at my username and albums should give a clue as to my area of interest. It's not the basics I'm after and by the way the motto is generally translated as:-
Better Death Than Dishonour

Griff,
I take your point as to quality but I can assure you that the quality of this badge is the same as the Officers' collars I have. It is not what you'd usually expect with a sweetheart, but obviously these can vary.

I'll take some photos of it over the weekend which should give better detail than the scans. I've had pin fittings on Officers' pagri badges before.

Cofion gorau,
Kevin

41st · #5 30-12-10, 03:31 PM

Here are some clearer images.
The 1st & 2nd are the badge in question to show the quality of construction.
The 3rd & 4th are a larger silver and gilt badge which I've never been able to identify and always pressumed it was for the FSH circa 1906 period.
The 5th & 6th are a standard good quality silver & gilt with maker's marks to Gaunt, just to show the difference.

Bantam · #6 31-12-10, 03:13 PM

Sut mae 41st,
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda,Very interesting.Superb badges I'm fairly sure I've seen a photo in one of the books showing the 3rd and 4th badge to be a FSH Officers badge.I wish I could help with your original badge the quality of the pin fitting overlay is very good but then why would they have two designs for the same cap ?I was going to suggest the officers field cap but the 1st Battalion I know wore a larger Prince of Wales feathers badge and other battalions wore an embroided verison,so it's back to the drawing board.
Hwyl
Bantam

41st · #7 09-01-12, 07:53 PM

I've finally found the answers to the two badges at the start of this post.

1. A good quality silver badge with a gilded motto overlay identical to the standard 1909 pattern collar.

2. The badge identified from an old framed display that was in the Welsh Regiment museum but now in storage up in Brecon as worn by the RSM of the 1st Battalion circa 1923.

3. A small silver and gilt badge identified in Churchill (1147) as worn by Officers and band of the 2nd Battalion in India circa 1906.

4. The badge identified from the same source as in 2 above as being Officers' collars for the blue frock coat circa 1912.

The times I have looked at that display when it was up and never noticed.

41st · #8 23-12-12, 09:26 PM

This is a strange one. The man in the photo has the PoW plumes above his 'WELSH' shoulder titles.

I have not come across any references to this before, nor have I seen any photographic evidence prior to this one.

They are the upright pattern.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Jonathan, one for your Father perhaps.

GriffMJ · #9 23-12-12, 09:34 PM

Hi Kevin

I saw that the other day ..... it appears to be this badge.

41st · #10 23-12-12, 09:50 PM

Gryff,

Ydy yn wyr.

It was me who bought it. I agree that the pattern is as shown by you.

Btw I also bought the Glam Yeo research album, priceless. You need to get your hands on the MY one.

Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda i ti a dy deulu.

Cofion gorau,

Kevin

GriffMJ · #11 23-12-12, 10:06 PM

Kevin

I was looking at the DHY album..... but I cant bring myself to pay nearly £300 for what appear to be photos of photos or scans of photos. I did make a reasonable offer.... but it was turned down.

Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda.

BROOKIES · #12 24-12-12, 05:32 PM

Afternoon Kevin.

Sounded out the old man and he thinks it's the 6th he's gonna digout a photo and the set.

Also mentioned the SWB lapel/pin back badge green writing on white background, of course he's seen one (usual thing "not paying that for it") and describe the pin on the back. He has a photo of them being worn as cap badges.

Have a good christmas.

Jonathan

Graham Stewart · #13 24-12-12, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41st

This is a strange one. The man in the photo has the PoW plumes above his 'WELSH' shoulder titles.

I have not come across any references to this before, nor have I seen any photographic evidence prior to this one.

They are the upright pattern.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Jonathan, one for your Father perhaps.

Possibly one of the following Welsh Regt Service Bn's raised by the National Executive Committee in 1914 - 10th(1st Rhondda); 13th(2nd Rhondda); 14th(Swansea); 15th(Carmarthen); 16th(Cardiff); 17th(1st Glamorgan); 18th(2nd Glamorgan) & 19th(Glamorgan Pioneers)

41st · #14 24-12-12, 09:56 PM

Graham,
There were more Service Battn's than that, but I tend to think it is highly likely that it was either a Service Batt'n or a TF Batt'n being naughty.
Definitely not the 16th though. I've got a fair bit of research on them.

Jonathan,
6th could be a fair bet as they liked their independence, Swansea Jacks.

Nadolig Lllawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i gyd.

Kevin

Graham Stewart · #15 24-12-12, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41st

Graham,
There were more Service Battn's than that, but I tend to think it is highly likely that it was either a Service Batt'n or a TF Batt'n being naughty.
Definitely not the 16th though. I've got a fair bit of research on them.

Jonathan,
6th could be a fair bet as they liked their independence, Swansea Jacks.

Nadolig Lllawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i gyd.

Kevin

Yep - know there were more Service Bn's, but those mentioned are the 'Locally' raised battalions i.e. not K1 units, raised through the Depot - a bit like the Tyneside Scots/Irish etc of the NF - and you often find they try and mark themselves apart.
Pals-16.jpg