Gaunt Buttons

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by GTB

Submitting the gilt and a/a versions side by side. Note that same or identical die used on both. The gilt is 'GAUNT. LONDON' with flawed G and T; the a/a is 'FIRMIN. LONDON'. I maintain the gilt is not a restrike. A restrike of.....what??
The logical answer to this conundrum is that the flawed backmark was also utilised for authentic buttons.

GTB

Hi GTB

It's unlikely your two buttons are from the "same or identical die" as they were made by two different companies.

Incidentally, I have the A/A buttons with both Firmin and Gaunt (with perfect letters) backmarks and the other main companies probably produced them also.

David

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello Rob

You said "Going back to my QC RHG, I don't know why it was made, but it was never issued and it was disposed of through a factory outlet, so on the one hand that makes it a wrong un. But it was made by Gaunt in dies used for issue buttons in a period that they were worn which makes it alright".

You may well be right about the circumstances surrounding your button but in my view it is an 'unissued' button, not 'a wrong-un'.

How many badges have reached the collectors' market in unissued condition? Does this make all unissued badges, buttons, uniforms and so on 'wrong-uns'? I don't think so. It is your button after all and you can call it what you like but I am quite happy to say that it is a genuine issue even if never issued to a serving soldier!

Roger

I think I'll have to sit on the fence re the QC RHG buttons, I honestly can't decide if they are "good" or "bad".

There is no reason why they shouldn't exist as they do, particularly as a private purchase item.

On the other hand, there are a lot around - I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has one - and they all seem to have been made at the same time (with the flawed "Gaunt"). I wonder why there are no earlier examples, or by different makers?

That tends to cast suspicion on them but maybe they were produced just prior to the 1969 merger and that rendered them obsolete.

I think we can keep putting forward arguments "for" and "against" but we are unlikely ever to know for sure!

David

[GTB]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi GTB

It's unlikely your two buttons are from the "same or identical die" as they were made by two different companies.

David

There's an answer to that. Firmin took over Gaunt in the 90s, so Gaunt's dies became property of Firmin.

Re "restrikes". My contention is that a restrike would be a strike of an item no longer in current use and done out of period. In the RHG QC case, the gilt button is concurrent with the anodised. It is not obsolete, it is not out of date, so it can't be categorised as a restrike.

GTB

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by GTB

There's an answer to that. Firmin took over Gaunt in the 90s, so Gaunt's dies became property of Firmin.

Re "restrikes". My contention is that a restrike would be a strike of an item no longer in current use and done out of period. In the RHG QC case, the gilt button is concurrent with the anodised. It is not obsolete, it is not out of date, so it can't be categorised as a restrike.

GTB

Hello GTB

Agree 100% with your definition of restrike - "a strike of an item no longer in current use and done out of period", couldn't have put it better!

"In the RHG QC case, the gilt button is concurrent with the anodised. It is not obsolete, it is not out of date, so it can't be categorised as a restrike". Again I agree. The button may have been part of a second, third or fourth contract or even mass over-production that was disposed of immediately on amalgamation of the regiment but that does not make it a restrike.

I think this argument may run and run but it is a lot better than some of those 'special forces' arguments we have on here!

Just to keep the ball rolling here are two more buttons!

We have only mentioned gilt/brass restrikes so far. The two buttons below are both King's crown Yeomanry, large size, silver plated with more or less the same backmarks. I have always had them down as restrikes because the lettering suggests a much later date than 1952. There is no green tint to the back (would there be anyway on silver plated/white metal finishes?) - and no, David, I have not brassoed the backs!).

Roger

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by GTB

There's an answer to that. Firmin took over Gaunt in the 90s, so Gaunt's dies became property of Firmin.

GTB

Yes, that's quite correct of course. But your buttons are RHG and could only (if original) date pre 1969. So, at that time the dies would belong to seperate companies, as I mentioned above.

David

[GTB]

David - You are correct. I noticed the anomaly shortly after posting, an oversight on my part.

Roger - I have a theory concerning your Yeomanry button backmarks, bearing in mind we are already establishing that the flawed lettering need not rigorously pertain to 'restrikes'.
My RHG QC is obviously later than both your KC Yeomanries. It has flawed G and T lettering, whereas both your buttons only have a flawed T. The die may have begun to wear during the earlier period of your KC buttons (affecting only the 'T'), but by, say 1953, the 'G' was also affected.

GTB

[davidwyke]

Hi Roger

There is a "?" over some Yeomanry buttons with the now infamous "Gaunt London" backmark but I think both of yours above are possibly OK.

I could be wrong here but:

Surrey Yeomanry - never changed to QC buttons, so yours could have been made up to 1967.

Buckinghamshire Yeomanry - although they did wear QC A/A buttons I think the "metal" buttons retained the KC, so again could date up to 1967.

Yorkshire Hussars buttons come in both silver and gilt versions with the same backmark. I have both in large, small & cap sizes. I think that lends credence to their authenticity. I'm fairly sure only large size restrikes were produced, which is logical as I don't think there would have been much demand for small sizes at the time. I certainly don't think there would be any demand for cap buttons. I've also been assured that the Yorkshire Hussars buttons, at least, were worn in service.

David

[Rob Miller]

I hadn't thought to look at my yeomanry buttons, I have 3 medium size 18mm ish with the "Gaunt London" mm, had we established that only large buttons were restruck?

Worcestershire Hussars KC
Sussex Yeomanry KC
Surrey Yeomanry KC Silver plated

Rob

[GTB]

I have large (26mm) and medium (18mm) plain brass, or g/m, domed Yeomanry/Hussars buttons with the Gaunt London unflawed backmark. These backmarks are not the shallower type as met with on restrikes but substantially larger and with deeper strikes cutting into the surface of the metal
The medium button is O/R but the larger is solid spun, evidently an officer's or SNCO's. However buttons have been zealously polished inasmuch that the latter looks O/R

GTB

[Warstone]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned another pertinent point. Gaunt didn't make all their own button backs until the 1970's. The Jewellery Quarter had many companies who specialised in sub contraction of one element of a process. eg: there was a company who made nothing but button shanks. They drew the wire and formed the shank, supplying them by the cwt for the next stage of the process, which was the back. The dies, piercing and clipping tools for these came from the manufacturers but they didn't produce the backs themselves. Completed backs arrived at the works to be assembled. Different back suppliers may have had different back marks in production for the same manufacturer at any given time. Backs were ordered by ligne size and weight, not quantity. With the rise of anodised and decline of brass, a lot of these companies vanished. Also Mercury gilding was banished by HSE in the early 70's. That led to different composition/gauge metals being used; different plating methods; speedier production requirements with a loss of quality detail and a radical change of process.

[Keith Blakeman]

I've often wondered if that was the case for sliders too. Gaunt and Firmin are often similar in size and shape and the small makers brand is identical in font, etc.

[Rob Miller]

A couple more large Gaunt London buttons for the discussion, the N Stafford appears to have a bronzed finish which could suggest Officers private purchase for a service dress Uniform?

My general button collection was always meant to represent the British Army up until the end of the Second War so I have replaced both of these with more likely earlier buttons, but it would be nice to know your thoughts on originality.

Rob

[Cribyn]

Hello Rob

Neither of these two buttons are on the list of known restrikes made by Gaunt in the 1970s, so that's good news, although there is always room for error!

The North Staffs button was in use until 1959 and the Rifle Brigade pattern was in use until 1958. In my view both buttons are genuine, period, Gaunt buttons, just late production, post 2nd World War and 1950s probably.

I'll be interested to read other views.

Roger

[GTB]

I have a genuine, well-worn 'NFS' button with a GAUNT LONDON backmark. The back is brass and not the shiny metal often met with.
I mention this cos the NFS existed 1941-48, and our backmark dates somewhere there. Transposing this data to my KC KSLI buttons, whereby this regiment existed per se until 1948, would be a contender for legitimacy of sorts.

GTB

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by GTB

I have a genuine, well-worn 'NFS' button with a GAUNT LONDON backmark. The back is brass and not the shiny metal often met with.
I mention this cos the NFS existed 1941-48, and our backmark dates somewhere there. Transposing this data to my KC KSLI buttons, whereby this regiment existed per se until 1948, would be a contender for legitimacy of sorts.

GTB

Hello GTB

I have no doubt that you are right about the legitimacy of your NFS button with the 'Gaunt London' backmark and, therefore, about your KC KSLI buttons.

My own view is that Gaunt started to use the simple 'Gaunt London' backmark sometime after the end of the Second World War, certainly well within the period of KC buttons. I have brass RAF King's crown buttons with 'Gaunt London' that are certainly not reproductions.

In principle there is nothing wrong with a 'Gaunt London' backmark unless it appears on an 'out of period' button (for want of a better term).

Roger