The Pagri Badge

[Roy]

Hi Gents,

This may be a daft idea but nothing ventured…

I thought it might be a nice idea to start a thread on Pagri Badges. By that I mean any badge that was originally designed to be worn on the Pagri (turban) and was originally made with either a horizontal or vertical pin fitting. I realize that most badges of this type are going to fall into the 'Colonial' category but I'm sure I have come across standard British regimental badges too (although can't think of any off hand). I know some badges that have long sliders are erroneously described as 'Pagri' but as I understand it this is not correct, so unless I have this completely wrong I think those badges with original pins would be the only 'correct' examples (?).

I know the term 'broached' is used a lot and to me this means a standard military badge that has had a (post use) civilian conversion, so wouldn't apply here. It is also true that some officers badges have original pin fittings but are not necessarily considered a 'Pagri' badge, as the intention was different.

I'm a self confessed novice, so I'm more than happy for more experienced collected to weigh in and correct me and/or educate me where necessary. My intention in starting this thread off is simply because I have a few of these badges and would really like to learn more about this topic and see what other exempts are out there. So I will start this off with a recent addition to my collection and a badge that has quickly become one of my favorites - an officers gilt pre 1903 'Pagri' badge to the 2nd Madras Infantry (see attached). I hope there are many more 'Pagri' badge enthusiasts out there and very much hope to see many more examples shared here on this thread.

P.s. Not sure if 'All Other Colonial Badges' is the right place for this thread but it seemed as good as any considering the scope this topic may explore.

Cheers, Roy.

[badger123]

I'm not so sure its as cut and dried as you may think Roy.

There's been quite a few discussions about Pagri badges on the forum over the years and its worth looking through them.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ht=pagri+badge

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ht=pagri+badge

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ht=pagri+badge

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...light=brooched

Ivan

[Paul Spellman]

Roy,
I have what I believe to be a purpose made Pugaree/FSH(Pagri?) badge to the South Lancs Regt (see image)
I think as Ivan says and what has been discussed in previous threads it is not an easy subject.
As KLR points out the long slidered badges were also made for the Broderick Cap so not every long slidered badge is a Pugaree/FSH one.
There are many ways to attach a badge to headress of all types - backing plates, slider retainers, stitching and some where probably converted to a brooch fitting for wear on headress too. This can also depend on circumstances and need I suppose so there are probably many adaptions made by the wearer for this type of badge, not forgetting you also have the cloth badges/flashes.
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Front of badge

[2747andy]

I'm probably going to get shot down in flames, but there are very few "Purpose Made" Pagri Badges! The one Paul shows above is probably what you could term a "Pure Pagri"?

There are then the numerous standard pattern "Headdress Badges" adapted either at Regimental level or at the Manufactures. By this I mean Helmet Plate Centers (HPC), Fur Cap and Glengary Grenades and Scottish Cap Badges normaly found lugged. All of these being fitted with a long slider to facilitate use in the Tropical Helmet. The slider being the "only" thing that differentiates them from standard cap badges. Also the brooched or pin clasp conversions.

The badges produced during the period 1903-06 which were fitted with the the "New Fangled" slider, replacing lugs, were not "Pagri" badges, but ones that needed no conversion to allow use as such!

Pure Pagri badges are pretty scarce, such as the one shown by Paul, The East Surrey Star, The Buffs Dragon and the Norfolk's Large Britannia for NCOs (there are plenty of others too).

This is not this first time such conversions took place, for example replacing the wire loops on HPCs with lugs to allow them to be used as Glengarry Badges.

And of course there are the numerous purpose made embroidered badges and flashes that some units adopted, which I will let the cloth collectors elaborate on (not an area I collect to)!

If you glance through Alan's excellent Album you will see that the majority are just badges with alternative fittings.

Andy

[Roy]

Hi Gents,

Thank you for your replies thus far. I'm already learning an enjoying your comments and observations.

Thanks Paul for sharing your fine example, a lovely badge and just the sort of badge I was hoping to see on this thread. I know this can be a challenging area and opinions abound on the topic. I wasn't especially thinking of cloth insignia or FSH badges but those metal badges designed specifically to be worn on the Pagri or Turban, used by those ethnic groups who would require such a headdress and by association a suitable badge with a pin fitting.

A previously mentioned this will likely restrict the topic to mainly Indian, some colonial and on rare occasions (like Paul's badge) other more standard British badges.

I find the area of British Colonial badges fascinating and while picking out just one small area of this (the pagri or turban badge), there must be a few interesting examples out there, as without focusing on this and unintentionally I have a couple already with a third on the way.

Either way gents, I'm very much looking forward to further thoughts and some more examples.

Cheers, Roy.

[BROOKIES]

Just to add

SWB (Officers) had a purpose made badge, larger than normal 42mm generally comes in at 44mm with pin backing.

Ta

[Roy]

Hi Ta,

I don't suppose you have one in your collection you could share?

Roy.

[BROOKIES]

Roy.

Here you go

P8270356.jpg P8270357.jpg

[Roy]

Hi Ta,

Wow! that is a beauty, hallmarked too - that would fit nicely in a couple of my collecting interests..

Now just to make this clear in my 'novice' mind as I'm certainly no expert, especially in the SWB area. Clearly this is an officers badge but I too have similar badges (silver with pin) that I would not necessarily call a 'Pagri' badge, as there is no obvious connection to be worn in India or by those ethnic personal who would wear a pagri.

My question Ta is do you know of such use by the SWB in India that along with the original pin fitting and increase size would lead one to conclude this is indeed a Pagri badge and not just an offers?

Not doubting in any way, just trying to learn more about this splendid badge.

Cheers, Roy.

[BROOKIES]

Roy.

Here you go another badge again with pin (replaced) and smaller and inferior than the first.

They are dated 1899 & 1901 (i'll have to double check) and on these dates they were in Indian with two battalions.

One officer must have had more money than the other.

Jonathan

P8270365.jpgP8270366.jpg

[Roy]

Hi Jonathan,

Another lovely badge and thanks for the extra info.

Probably not convenient but it would be nice to see this two badges side by side to show the difference in size from the purpose made (pagri) badge and the 'converted' example.

The few Pagri badges I have are Indian/Colonial units which by themselves are quite scarce but I should imagine original Pagri badges made this way (like your first example) are very rare indeed.

Cheers, Roy.

[BROOKIES]

Roy.

As you like your silver badges, here's a Welsh Regiment officers side cap Silver/Enamel badge. And a 1877 Rifle Brigade Cross belt plate.

PA050009.jpgPA050011.jpg

P9270195.jpg P9270202.jpg

[Roy]

Thanks Jonathan,

Very nice indeed, you have some lovely pieces.

With you Welsh interest I can't help but wonder if you're located in that part of the world - but if so it's way past your bed time..

Growing up in Shrewsbury I spent many weekend camping or riding around Wales. Did the entire coastal rout once on my motorcycle, arrr those were the days!

Cheers, Roy.

[BROOKIES]

Roy.

The two next to each other for comparison, also with a regular h/m cap badge.

Jonathan

P1040272.jpg P1040269.jpg