Brigade of Guards Officer's service cap badges.

[John Mulcahy]

Gentlemen

can any of you help me understand the practices regarding the type of service dress cap badges worn by the Brigade of Guards, but specifically the Irish Guards?

I am interested in trying to understand the following.

1) What was the period of wear of the full size bronzed cap star in OSD?
2) Did the Irish Guards officers wear a Field Service Cap on formation in 1900, if so what badge was worn in it and when was it replaced? Did the OSD peaked forage cap replace it?
3) When did the small size silver gilt and enamel cap star begin to be worn in the khaki peaked service cap?

What I know (or think I know) is as follows.

On formation in 1900 a "side cap" which I presume is actually an FSC was worn and the star worn in it was actually the silver gilt and enamel badge of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards. This is shown below on the left and was apparently replaced in 1915 with the small service dress star (source for this information is a display in the Guards Museum)

The 1911 Dress regulations list the full size cap star in Bronze to be worn in the peaked khaki service cap (shown below on the right).

In recent times the small service dress star has been worn on the khaki service dress cap.

Thus it appears as if the OSD bronze star may have been replaced as early as 1915 by the small silver gilt and enamel badge and that the FSC may have co-existed with the OSD forage cap untill 1915. What complicates matters is most great war photos show officers wearing the coloured forage cap with black band and full size silver gilt and enamel cap star and not the OSD cap.

Any help would be gratefully received.

John

[KLR]

John, I can't help specifically about the badges but officers wore a small "forage cap" from 1878 until 1902. This had a small circumference (almost like a pill box hat) but with a peak. Badges worn on it wre invariably bulliion.
The FSC was worn up to 1903 officially, though it continued with Vol then (very occasionally) with TF AND in India. but I don't have to tell you that Guards had quirks of their own (about which I know very little).
"Service Dress" and the introduction of the bronze OSD badge came in 1902.

[Voltigeur]

Hello KLR and John, excuse me for intruding but,I found a photograph illustrating the "forage cap" (similar for the Irish?) for the Coldstream Guards and I thought this might help.
Cheers
Jo

Sir John Ponsonby,Coldstream Guards, 1897.(Commissioned Irish Rifles,1888)

http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~mf10006/john-ponsonby.jpg

[John Mulcahy]

Thank you both for your comments. You are both right in that the Officer's forage cap of the early 1900's was "pork pie" type body with a peak at a sharp angle. The appropriate page from the 1900 dress regulations is shown below.

Indeed most Infantry regiments worn an embroidered badge in this form of undress cap. The Irish Guards however wore the full size silver gilt and enamel cap star in this form of dress.

But the forage cap in use by 1911 was a very different design (see below on the right).

What I have confirmed since my first post is that, the Forage cap and FSC were worn on formation of the regiment. I am still trying to determine the date of wear of the full size OSD bronze star, looks like it may be 1902 - 1915. Plus an additional question regarding when the FSC ceased to be worn. Data from the regimental musum suggests c. 1915 but I have no supporting proof of this.

any further help would be gratefully received.

John

[John Mulcahy]

the images in question, 1900 on the left 1911 on the right.