|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
13th Hussars Z scroll badge
This one arrived this morning, it is maker marked J.R Gaunt London to both the rear of the badge and the slider.
There seems to be a 'scar' at the bottom behind the slider, possibly where a lug was removed? Previous threads confirm this 13th Z scroll badge was worn by Officers in Peaked and Side caps. The 'factory' conversion to a slider would suggest this could have been also worn by ORs. Any thoughts? Tony.
__________________
For Christopher night night son. |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
Tony
The pre-WW1 Dress regs suggest that this was the Officers cap badge for peaked caps and side caps as well. The wreath badge was intended for wear on the Foreign Service Helmet and worn on peaked caps by the other ranks. This shows it in use in the 1920s ; probably after amalgamation but before the QMO (5-bar gate) badge was introduced. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...038#post462038 Alan Last edited by Alan O; 23-10-21 at 02:44 PM. Reason: update with link |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
After reading these posts,I tought it would be interesting to find photos of members of this unit....These are the only good ones found.
Jo © IWM (HU 116349) Lieutenant John Arthur Jeffrey MC. 13th Hussars. © IWM (HU 127543) Lieutenant Basil Williams. 13th Hussars. This last one is identified,by the IWM, as 13th Hussars.... © IWM (HU 125132) Second Lieutenant Ernest Victor Rolfe. 13th Hussars. Death: 05 March 1917 Killed at Lajj Mesopotamia.Son of Ernest and Margaret Rolfe, of 16, Royal Crescent, Edinburgh. © IWM (HU 120640) Private Thomas Crouch 2898. 13th Hussars. Death: 05 March 1917 Killed in action at Lajj Mesopotamia © IWM (HU 123469) Lance Corporal Charles H. Kennington, 11936.13th Hussars.Death: 05 March 1917, missing in action at Lajj, Mesopotamia.
__________________
"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." - “There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.” Donald Rumsfeld, before the Iraqi Invasion,2003. Age is something that doesn't matter, unless you are a cheese. Last edited by Alan O; 11-12-18 at 04:25 PM. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
2Lt Rolfe, Lovat Scouts. Perhaps he later transferred to the 13th Hussars.
|
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Jo
__________________
"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." - “There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.” Donald Rumsfeld, before the Iraqi Invasion,2003. Age is something that doesn't matter, unless you are a cheese. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
http://www.lightdragoons.org.uk/downloads.html
If you read the 13th Hussars Vol 2 PDF published 911 it records the Officers 'Z' badge in bronze in 1904 whilst it shows a picture of the 'Private's badge' as the wreath and crown badge. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/force...07officers.htm A photo from 1907 showing the officers wearing the officer's Z cap badge worn by officers. The ORs are all still wearing the badge less pill box caps that were supposed to have been replaced by the Brodrick. However the trumpeter at bottom left wears a peaked cap with the full wreath ORs badge shown in the sketch above. This was also worn by WOs. The Khaki FSH was worn with a diamond patch on the side in regtl colours and the wreath badge in white ceremonial FSH. The regt had also worn side caps alongside the pill box caps circa 1900 but all of the photos that I can find show them to be badgeless or the wreath badge. Any badge worn at this time would be lugged. The regt certainly had dallied with the Brodrick with the wreath badge in UK c.1903/4 but has abandoned it in India some 2 years later in favour of the obsolete pillbox. So to summarise OR's badge use was: 1890s-c1900 - badgeless pill box or side cap with the XIII wreath badge. The FSH was also authorised to be worn with a QVC wreath pugaree badge. 1900-02 - South Africa in khaki FSH the regt wore a cloth diamond bi-colour patch in South Africa up to 1902. 1903-04 - Aldershot/Shorncliffe - Brodrick/ side cap with wreath badge. 1904-14 - Return to pill box caps on return to India. FSH are again worn with cloth patches. Alongside this WOs and Band wore the peaked cap with wreath badge. At some point post 1907 pill box caps were replaced by peaked caps with the wreath badge. 1914-22 - The khaki peaked cap with wreath badge was worn. I have seen photos 1921 with the wreath badge clearly in use. 1922-? 13th Hussars Z type cap badge previously worn by officers only. 192?-38 - 13th/18th QMO (5 bar gate) 1938 - 13th/18th 2nd pattern. Sealed pattern card in IWM id for: /Cav/2687 18/10/38; Last edited by Alan O; 25-09-22 at 08:49 AM. Reason: revised dates |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks Alan, really good.
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Alan
KK say that the wreath badge is also to be found in silver-gilt and bronze, is this true? I have never seen either. That all the brass “Z” badges are fakes is quite a call, but then they would need to have been used by ORs prior to 13th/18th amalgamation in 1922 but after 1916 when the wreath economy version was issued. Yet the 13th/18th adopted with the "Z" pattern after the "H" version. All very odd! Bill |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Alan
Just looked at the IWM archive and the 13th/18th Z pattern samples were submitted in 1938. Bill |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Bill
Was there an economy version? KLR's research does not confirm it. As the regt wore peaked caps in 1916-22 (and beyond) why would they not continue to wear the wreath badge as it was the same headgear? The Z badges are correct for officers cap and collars but not for ORs. I know it's big call but where is the evidence that they were worn by ORs in any item of headdress? I would love to be proved wrong so I can put my die cast one back in the album. Any s/g and bz wreath badge would be officers and I don't collect them. The Officers dress regs of that period show that the wreath badge was for the pagri. Presumably, my assumption, S/G for No 1 dress with white covers and bronze for khaki covered FSH. However rregtl practice in 1910 differed to dress regs: http://britishempire.co.uk/forces/ar...ussars1910.htm This is a record of headgear held by the IWM. It shows that there were 3 types of headgear authorised for wear post 1903. The OR's Brodrick used the full wreath badge as did the OR's peaked forage cap (in both No1 dress and khaki) whilst the pill box was badgeless. Other ranks', 13th Hussars, 1903-1904, sealed pattern, 1903, obsolete 1904. Brodrick, all ranks', Forage cap, pillbox, bandsman and trumpeter, 13th Hussars, 1891-1905, sealed pattern, 1891, 1895, obsolete, 1905. Forage cap, pillbox, other ranks', 13th Hussars, 1891-1905, sealed pattern, 1891, 1895, obsolete, 1905. Two forage caps, peaked, all ranks' except warrant officers', 13th Hussars, 1905-1908, sealed pattern, 1906-1908, 1905-1906. If you add to this the fact that: a. The undress headgear for the regt in India (up to 1914) was the khaki Foreign Service Helmet, which the photos shown was not worn with any badge in the pagri. b. All photos of OR casualties 1914 onwards in khaki caps show the full sized wreath badge in use. Last edited by Alan O; 11-12-18 at 04:01 PM. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Thank you both, sorry not to reply sooner - a busy weekend.
I did see these photographs on the IMW website and I too now think it highly unlikely that the Z pattern or brass economy OR badges were ever issued in that they were only on the Western Front for 18 months. According to E.A.James, the 13th H sailed from Meerut landing in Marseilles in Dec 1914 and then in July 1916 left Europe for Basra and were in Mesopotamia for the rest of the war as part of the 7th Indian Cavalry Brigade. However, can we categorically say that the silver-gilt, bronze and all brass wreath badges never existed and are figments of K and K's imaginations? If they were part of Hugh King's collection presumably Bosley's sold them. Bill |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Bill,
No, I think the bronze and s/g were officers' badges for the Foreign Service Helmet. Your own post of 1911 Dress regs shows them to be authorised as such. The link below also shows w/o's wearing white topped peaked caps whilst the ORs are in pill box. These could be bi-metal or even S/G. However it is clear that the WOs wore the wreath design and not the Z type badge. http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11619 The photos in the thread and link above show the bi-metal wreath in use by Ptes-WOs pre-1916 and not the Z-type badge. As for the all brass wreath version, perhaps KLR can assist.The design of the 13 Hussars wreath badge is not one that would make much saving in an economy form and as has been shown in other cavalry regts there were far more complex cavalry designs still being made in bi-metal in 1917-18. https://archive.org/stream/thirteent...ge/42/mode/2up If you go to page 42 it shows a bandsman of the 13 Hussars in 1911 wearing full ceremonial dress including the white cloth covered FSH. However he is not wearing any badge in it so either the regt had ceased the wearing of badges on FSH by 1911 even in full ceremonial dress and/or the practice was confined to officers. Page 45 shows both white and khaki in use - again no badge. Page 53 - khaki FSH - no badges again. Page 66 - selection of officers cap and collar Z badges (with a few staff and General cap badges by those serving outside the regt) Pages 123 & 171 - khaki FSH in 1917 - no badges shown. Last edited by Alan O; 11-12-18 at 04:26 PM. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Just to add confusion to the topic. This ebay photo is titled the 13th Hussars and dated Jan 1923: so just after the 18th Sqn had joined the regt to form the 13/18 Hussars.
He is wearing the 13th Wreath collars, WW1 medal ribbons reinforcing my view that the 13H wore wreath badges up to amalgmation. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RPC-Postc...p2l:rk:93:pf:0 The second photo below shows the Z-type portrait dated to post WW1 by the cap style so should therefore date to post amalgamation but before the regt went overseas in 1929. Speculation on my part but Tony's cap badge may well be a regtly procured badge hence the makers' name. Last edited by Alan O; 12-12-18 at 08:21 PM. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
A second picture of the OR's Z type badge in use on a post war badge.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154205823...wAAOSwmktfl1H9 Unfortunately not dated but I suspect 1920's. |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
I am quite sure that ebay photo is 1920s as well. As an aside, note the plain Hussar buttons and tailored collar on the 7H chap.
CB
__________________
"We seldom learn the true want of what we have till it is discovered that we can have no more." Sam. Johnson |
|
|