British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum
ebay
'Badges/Patches' 'Militaria, Badges'    Medals

 Military Badges

 All British  WW1  WW2 WW1   WW2

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 26-09-17, 01:58 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,777
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
The Drum-major is Scots Guards I think but the same principle applies.

The really rare images, and the ones that show the larger cap star, are of the peaked forage cap worn by all ORs circa 1830-1850. After that only battalion staff (and officers) had peaks, until the new forage cap of 1905-06, onward through to today.

The photo is stated to be of Drum Major Price of the CG.
His tunic buttons just about qualify as being in pairs, although it isn't very obvious. Four button cuffs - the SG were wearing three buttons on the cuff at that time?
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 26-09-17, 02:46 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
A Belgic shako front that used to be displayed at a museum in Brussels, it appears to be a 2nd Foot Guards Light Company item.
Allegedly a relic of Waterloo it's considered suspect, a possible "put together".

A self portrait by a man who served in the 1st Foot Guards 1804 - 1825, depicting himself wearing walking out uniform with Belgic shako as a member of the Light Coy in 1815 (his battalion didn't serve at Waterloo).

A more recent interpretation of the self portrait, the star thought to have an oval rather than round centre, consisting of the regiment's device of the Garter encircling the royal cypher.

The crowned rococo shield shaped plate for the for infantry bore the regimental number, the 1st Foot Guards plate an embossed star bearing the Garter with "GR" in the centre, worn from the introduction of the Belgic.
On 28/12/1814 it was ordered that Light Companies adopt separate badges of a bugle horn over the regimental number.
It was long thought that the 1st Foot Guards now wore the bugle over the rococo shield plate but the self portrait shows that the bugle was worn over a star.
At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako?).

The Coldstream's star shown is part of a grouping of items to one man of the regiment in a collection comprising "papers", a Colour Sergeants badge, a Waterloo Medal, a six pointed star of yellow, scarlet & dark blue ribbon (a recruiting "favour"?) & this brass Garter star on a scarlet cloth backing.

It's described as being 47mm tall by 44mm wide, too small for use on the knapsack or cartridge pouch, having a large & sturdy fitting on the reverse which precludes its use on the uniform, but would be suitable for use on head dress though too large as a form of securing a cockade.

It is possibly a badge to be worn by the Light Coy of the 2nd Foot Guards as per the arrangement in the 1st Foot Guards self portrait.........
Great images. The yellow, blue and red rosette was indeed a recruiting favour that was used for over 100 years, usually with trailing streamers. It was worn by the entire recruiting party 'drumming up' recruits and often given to each man signed up as a marker of his capture/belonging.
The brass badge that you have posted seems in size very much like the star worn by CG on the 1830-50 peaked forage cap. I think that the same die made stars for the cartouche pouch and shoulder belt plate but with differing fixings.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 26-09-17 at 04:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 26-09-17, 02:49 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
The photo is stated to be of Drum Major Price of the CG.
His tunic buttons just about qualify as being in pairs, although it isn't very obvious. Four button cuffs - the SG were wearing three buttons on the cuff at that time?
You are quite right, looking again it is obvious that the buttons are in pairs. I was thrown by what seems an overly elongated star, but of course he was battalion staff and thus wore a more officer's style of badge, albeit in inferior metals.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 26-09-17, 04:09 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1,978
Default

Leigh and Toby, absolutely fantastic info.
Thanks Andy
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 26-09-17, 04:32 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,777
Default

[QUOTE=leigh kitchen;422048]
......... At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako? ).......

QUOTE]

A senior moment there - 1st Bn 2nd Foot Guards, a sergeant of a Battalion Company
Regency shako without the back peak of some of the earlier models, & increased in height.
Authorised in August 1815, the Regency shako was not on general issue until the following year.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2FG 1stBn Sgt Line Company 18212.jpg (29.5 KB, 13 views)
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 26-09-17, 06:25 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1,978
Default

[QUOTE=leigh kitchen;422080]
Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
......... At the end of December 1815 the Belgic was replaced by the Regency shako, so the portrait can be dated precisely to a 12 months period (did the Guards ever wear the Regency Shako? ).......

QUOTE]

A senior moment there - 1st Bn 2nd Foot Guards, a sergeant of a Battalion Company
Regency shako without the back peak of some of the earlier models, & increased in height.
Authorised in August 1815, the Regency shako was not on general issue until the following year.
Thats a cracking image Leigh.
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 30-09-17, 02:52 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

I take it, the badge would be secured to the valise, itself, by loops, rather than actually attached to the central strap, at that particular point in time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Coldstream Guards 1880.
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 30-09-17, 06:00 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

So was the cape actually worn with a third, central strap, or simply just the two, the badge would certainly look rather odd, placed on a strap at either end, rather than in the middle?
Was it worn at waist level or behind the shoulder, as the folded greatcoat had been?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
My understanding is that for Guard Order the cape alone (with valise badge) was worn after WW2, as per the left hand man in your twin rear view, until the end of National Service. I suspect that it was only in the Colder half of the year though. It was an old guardsman who told me. Adding that it was as a protection from rainfall. In those days guard included duties at Buck house, Jimmies and the Bank of England as well as Windsor Castle when Royals were in residence.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 01-10-17, 03:33 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 1,978
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
I take it, the badge would be secured to the valise, itself, by loops, rather than actually attached to the central strap, at that particular point in time?
I believe you are right Frank, if it wasn't it ( the badge ) may slip down.
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 03-10-17, 07:46 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

Hello Andy,
I had thought it was safe to assume the square shaped fitting for the strap was a twentieth century thing.
Regards Frank
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 03-10-17, 12:29 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
So was the cape actually worn with a third, central strap, or simply just the two, the badge would certainly look rather odd, placed on a strap at either end, rather than in the middle?
Was it worn at waist level or behind the shoulder, as the folded greatcoat had been?
We can see from the image that it was indeed worn centrally, Frank, but I’ve no idea how it was secured. We will need an elderly guardsman with a good memory to advise.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 03-10-17, 01:53 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

Sorry, which image?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
We can see from the image that it was indeed worn centrally, Frank, but Iíve no idea how it was secured. We will need an elderly guardsman with a good memory to advise.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 04-10-17, 05:39 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Sorry, which image?
Leigh's post number 22. He posted an image showing the use of valise stars on greatcoat and cape.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 05-10-17, 06:48 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

Okay, yes, sorry I missed that, so the left image is the cape only, thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 04-11-17, 05:02 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,777
Default

I've added this link as ithe thread involves "Waterloo era" CG insignia:

http://gmic.co.uk/topic/68850-181215...onic-insignia/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.