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  #31  
Old 23-09-17, 07:12 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Andy, there is some strong circumstantial evidence that they might well be a size of badge that was produced from a single die for at least two purposes, namely as a cartouche badge (not valise, whose badge was painted on at first) and as a forage cap badge for both, the 1830s-40s, peaked cap (worn by all ORs) and its replacement cap without peak worn tipped to the side of the head with chinstrap down that was adopted in 1853 (battalion staff retained the peaked cap but with gold lace band).

After recent months spent examining contemporary images I strongly believe that in terms of form and function the cartouche badge, especially for Foot Guards, was the true conception/origin of the undress/forage cap badge as we know it today. Incredibly the 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards cartouche badge of 1799 was identical to the forage cap badge worn today by the Coldstream and Scots Guards.

A potential third purpose was as a bed plate, but I am unsure whether that usage was just a way to use up large stocks of a dual purpose badge that had been in use for many decades, after a smaller pattern badge was introduced for the 'Brodrick styled' (it was not a true Brodrick) Guards Pattern forage cap, issued in 1900, that was worn square on the head without chinstrap, as well as a much larger valise badge that had to all intents and purposes replaced the cartouche badge as an item of Guards insignia.
Yes Toby, good points, i reckon you've hit the nail on the head with reference to the origin of the Headdress Badge. That would definitely make sense.
Andy
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  #32  
Old 23-09-17, 07:55 PM
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Forgot i had this, hope it helps.
Andy
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  #33  
Old 23-09-17, 07:57 PM
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And this.
Andy
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  #34  
Old 23-09-17, 08:00 PM
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And this.
Andy
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  #35  
Old 24-09-17, 06:48 AM
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Okay, so into the 1960's, what did the Grenadier's do regarding their badge?

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It was the practice of all the Foot Guard regiments, each of which had its own pattern of valise badge, just as they had previously with the cartouche badge.
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  #36  
Old 24-09-17, 08:33 AM
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Okay, so into the 1960's, what did the Grenadier's do regarding their badge?
Not sure what you mean Frank, they stopped using it along with their fellow regiments. If you mean what form did it take, they used their older device of the Garter strap encircling the Sovereign's cypher, which as a badge for 1st Foot Guards predates the grenade fired proper.
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  #37  
Old 24-09-17, 08:43 AM
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And this.
Andy
]
Brilliant Andy, and yet more pictorial evidence. If you look at the size of the badge on the cartouche and compare it with the size of badge used on the original, Foot Guards pattern, peaked forage cap of the 1830s-40s, that I posted in the other thread, you will see that they are identical. To put things in perspective, the line regiments of 1799, had only a simple number badge on their cartouche, usually within a crowned circle, all in the candlestick brass of that era. They had only one undress cap (unlike the Guards two), which also bore only a simple brass number. Thus the Foot Guards alone have devices as undress cap badges that predate all others and can truly be considered the origin of the badges that are worn today.
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  #38  
Old 24-09-17, 01:36 PM
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I was simply wondering if they continued to wear their last "valise" badge actually into the 1960's?

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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Not sure what you mean Frank, they stopped using it along with their fellow regiments. If you mean what form did it take, they used their older device of the Garter strap encircling the Sovereign's cypher, which as a badge for 1st Foot Guards predates the grenade fired proper.
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  #39  
Old 24-09-17, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Andy, there is some strong circumstantial evidence that they might well be a size of badge that was produced from a single die for at least two purposes, namely as a cartouche badge (not valise, whose badge was painted on at first) and as a forage cap badge for both, the 1830s-40s, peaked cap (worn by all ORs) and its replacement cap without peak worn tipped to the side of the head with chinstrap down that was adopted in 1853 (battalion staff retained the peaked cap but with gold lace band).

After recent months spent examining contemporary images I strongly believe that in terms of form and function the cartouche badge, especially for Foot Guards, was the true conception/origin of the undress/forage cap badge as we know it today. Incredibly the 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards cartouche badge of 1799 was identical to the forage cap badge worn today by the Coldstream and Scots Guards.

A potential third purpose was as a bed plate, but I am unsure whether that usage was just a way to use up large stocks of a dual purpose badge that had been in use for many decades, after a smaller pattern badge was introduced for the 'Brodrick styled' (it was not a true Brodrick) Guards Pattern forage cap, issued in 1900, that was worn square on the head without chinstrap, as well as a much larger valise badge that had to all intents and purposes replaced the cartouche badge as an item of Guards insignia.

The 1st Foot Guards knapsack with painted badge, 1815.
In 1808 knapsacks were ordered to be painted black & to bear regimental numbers, the Foot Guards bearing regimental badges.

The Foot Guards cartouche badges are described as of stamped brass, but the photo of the 1st Foot Guards one is of a cast badge.

The cartouche badges worn by the three regiments appear to me to be significantly larger than the CG elongated star badge that started off this thread.

I like the quotes attributed to ex-servicemen in response to Lady Elizabeth Butlers questions while researching "The Roll Call", her painting of the Grenadiers after battle during the Crimean War.

"One rather alcoholic Chelsea Pensioner, asked what letters should be shown on the Guards haversacks, decided that they had been 'B.O.' for Board of Ordnance; then changed his mind in favour of 'W.D.' for War Department; then, on reflection, decided that it should after all be 'W.O.' for War Office."

"The artist asked another ex-Crimean soldier if it was correct to show a grenade on the pouches. His unhelpful reply was, 'Well miss, the natural hinference would be that it was a grenade, but it was something like my 'and.' In the event she was lent an original badge by the War Office".

The badge like an 'and sounds to me like the grenade badge but the only cartridge pouch badge visible in the painting appears to be the crowned garter & cypher.
Attached Images
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Last edited by leigh kitchen; 24-09-17 at 03:52 PM.
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  #40  
Old 24-09-17, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
I was simply wondering if they continued to wear their last "valise" badge actually into the 1960's?
Frank, the Grenadier Guards did have a badge on the "Transponder Pack" whilst i served but i cannot remember what it was. I'm going to message a mate later, i'll let you know later.
Andy
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  #41  
Old 24-09-17, 04:59 PM
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Hello Andy,
Yes, but, that was not and indeed, is not, a "valise" badge with the fitting for a strap, the reason, I asked the question, was simply because of the matter of the crown, I would be very surprised to see a Grenadier wearing a GviR "valise" badge in the 1960's.
Kind regards Frank
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  #42  
Old 24-09-17, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
The 1st Foot Guards knapsack with painted badge, 1815.
In 1808 knapsacks were ordered to be painted black & to bear regimental numbers, the Foot Guards bearing regimental badges.

The Foot Guards cartouche badges are described as of stamped brass, but the photo of the 1st Foot Guards one is of a cast badge.

The cartouche badges worn by the three regiments appear to me to be significantly larger than the CG elongated star badge that started off this thread.

I like the quotes attributed to ex-servicemen in response to Lady Elizabeth Butlers questions while researching "The Roll Call", her painting of the Grenadiers after battle during the Crimean War.

"One rather alcoholic Chelsea Pensioner, asked what letters should be shown on the Guards haversacks, decided that they had been 'B.O.' for Board of Ordnance; then changed his mind in favour of 'W.D.' for War Department; then, on reflection, decided that it should after all be 'W.O.' for War Office."

"The artist asked another ex-Crimean soldier if it was correct to show a grenade on the pouches. His unhelpful reply was, 'Well miss, the natural hinference would be that it was a grenade, but it was something like my 'and.' In the event she was lent an original badge by the War Office".

The badge like an 'and sounds to me like the grenade badge but the only cartridge pouch badge visible in the painting appears to be the crowned garter & cypher.
I believe it was a crowned garter, the cartouche badge that they had worn for a great many years. The GG were actually quite slow in adopting the grenade fired proper for anything other than their forage cap badge for some years, and I think that the badge they used at first for caps was the simple GS grenade used by flank companies.
I accept that the badge that started this thread might not be a cartouche badge, but its larger size suggests to me that it may well be from one of the earlier forage caps, perhaps that in use before 1900, as they too were slightly larger. My main point and theory is that the same die was very likely used for a range of purposes.
Your implied point about Lady Butler's painting and her sources is well made and amusing, but the images I posted in the latter part of the thread on the 'grenade fired proper' were taken from life by the artist concerned and not from years later. The peaked forage caps and associated badges then in use (1830-50) are especially interesting and the latter seemingly the same size as the cartouche badge.

Thank you for the images, I am more convinced than ever.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 24-09-17 at 09:31 PM.
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  #43  
Old 24-09-17, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Hello Andy,
Yes, but, that was not and indeed, is not, a "valise" badge with the fitting for a strap, the reason, I asked the question, was simply because of the matter of the crown, I would be very surprised to see a Grenadier wearing a GviR "valise" badge in the 1960's.
Kind regards Frank
Frank, the old Guardsman who told me of the continued wear of folded capes and valise badges after WW2 served as a young man in the late 40s through into the 1950s. He told me the wearing of them continued until National Service was ended, but I have seen no visual evidence so have only his word and recollection. I don't know if the crowned garter was ever made with QEII's cypher other than the smaller version in a/a for the shoulder strap.
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  #44  
Old 24-09-17, 06:06 PM
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You certainly do see individuals wearing plates and badges with the wrong crown, but, they tend to be officers, in the 1900's and late 1950's.
I suspect that in this particular case, they may well have been worn well into the mid to late 1950's, but, I would be very surprised if they had been worn beyond that, we need photographic evidence, which, sadly, I very much doubt will be forthcoming.
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  #45  
Old 24-09-17, 06:41 PM
grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
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Quote:
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Hello Andy,
Yes, but, that was not and indeed, is not, a "valise" badge with the fitting for a strap, the reason, I asked the question, was simply because of the matter of the crown, I would be very surprised to see a Grenadier wearing a GviR "valise" badge in the 1960's.
Kind regards Frank
Yes sorry Frank, i get you now.
Andy
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