WW1 55th Division Patches-variants

[MH331]

Here are a few variants of the 55th Div Insignia - all WW1

regards

Mark

[Mike Jackson]

Excellent - Have you any idea when the number of leaves per stem was reduced from 7 to 5? Mike

[irish]

Very nice array.

Jack

[Peter Brydon]

Mark,

Some very nice badges.

Here are some of my examples which cover the whole period the sign was in use, sadly the No4 Independent Company sign is not a genuine one.

I cannot remember where I got the picture of the last one from but it is a WW1 officers example and I think possibly a one off ( like the No.4 Independent Company one, I wish it was mine ).

Peter

[conservator]

I have read a couple of posts relating to the 55th Div badge and the question being raised regarding the change from seven leaves per side to five. I thought that I'd throw in this piece of info that might cast a different light.
In the mid-1970s, a good friend of my mother's explained to me that her father had designed this badge and that he had used the red rose to represent the county of Lancashire, and five leaves on each side of the stem to represent 55 (5 and 5). The father of the lady was Rev Canon James Ogden Coop, DSO TD, MA. He was Senior Chaplain (C of E) to the Forces, 1st Class, to the 55th West Lancs Div. during the war, and Senior Chaplain to the Forces in the Western Command, as well as being vicar of St Margaret's, Anfield, Liverpool after the War. He was the author of two books, The Story of the 55th Division, 1916-1919 and A Short Guide to the Battlefields. I regard the information from this lady as being completely accurate. She gave me a bronze Royal Drawing Society medal around the time, engraved 'K E Coop, 1926' and I did wonder, some years later, whether she had drawn the badge herself from her father's design, and had simply been too modest to mention it - something I'll never know.
However, it would seem that it was only ever intended to have five leaves per side as they actually represent the number of the division, and any more or any less simply would have no relevance. My guess is that the seven leaf badges may well have been a manufacturing error, made many decades ago without realising the significance of having five leaves per side.
Are there any contemporary photographs showing seven leaf badges being worn? Or, does anyone have any info regarding the legitimate wear of seven leaf badges?
Regards,
George

[Peter Brydon]

George,

Not a contemporary photograph but a picture of the service dress tunic of Lt.Pegge of the 6th Kings Liverpool Rifles in my collection which shows the 7 leaf sign in use.

Apparently for some reason, according to Anne Claytons book, "Chavasse Double V.C. " there was some animosity between the Reverend Coop and Bishop Chavasse, the Bishop of Liverpool and father of Noel Chavasse.

P.B.

[Mike Jackson]

Here's a near contemporary reference - from "Divisional and Other Signs" written and illustrated by Capt V Wheeler-Holohan, 12th London Regt, published 1920:
55 WL Div.02.jpg

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

George,

Not a contemporary photograph but a picture of the service dress tunic of Lt.Pegge of the 6th Kings Liverpool Rifles in my collection which shows the 7 leaf sign in use.

Apparently for some reason, according to Anne Claytons book, "Chavasse Double V.C. " there was some animosity between the Reverend Coop and Bishop Chavasse, the Bishop of Liverpool and father of Noel Chavasse.

P.B.

Peter,

Your "Museum" puts the Liverpool Museum on the pierhead to shame.

regards

[Peter Brydon]

Thanks Simon,

What I find sad is that the present Kings Collection display in the new Museum is the 3rd display that I have known in the city and each time the collection has been moved , less and less material has been put on display.

I am afraid Museums today seem to cater more for touchy feely items and areas where visiting school kids can eat their packed lunches rather than displaying the objects that enthusiasts want to see.

I have to say that last time I was at the Museum of the Manchesters I was very impressed.

Regards

Peter

[badger123]

Peter, I have to agreed with what you say about less and less being on display at regimental museums.

For years the York and Lancaster Museum displays didn't change and were cramped into a small area but they did show 90% of what is a huge collection (not including archival material).

The museum was packed up and moved 2 1/2 years ago and has only just this month been opened at a new location but with a fraction of the items on display. Ironically the Y&L museum now takes up 6 times as much space as it used to and is mainly hands on touchy feely things which I agree are great for keeping the interest of VERY young visitors but as you say, for enthusiasts, disappointing.

The person responsible for writing some of the information boards has a lot to answer for e.g. on a board showing army ranks, Warrant Officers are known as WOC2's. (WO2's yes, WOC2's no).

And as for referring to Shako's in the display cabinets as being Kepi's is unforgivable!

Ivan

[Mike Jackson]

Checking my collection, I note that the only example that I have of the 7 + 7 leaf 55 Div sign - which has been worn - came from a house clearance in the company of the very obscure First World War XVIII Corps sign (crossed axes below the letter M). The Corps Comd was Lt Gen Sir Ivor Maxse, hence Maxse's Corps. This might place the 55 Div sign to the period 1916 onwards. Mike

[conservator]

Peter and Mike,
Many thanks for your replies and pictures.
It appears that the West Lancashire Division was re-titled the 55th West Lancashire Division on 3rd January 1916 and had started to disband shortly after its third anniversary in January 1919.
It could be the case that the 5+5 leaf sign was used throughout this period.
Mike's scan from "Divisional and Other Signs", supports the fact that the acknowledged version of the badge, up to 1919/1920 (demise of the 55th and publication date) was 5+5.
Might it be that the 7+7 leaf badge was used post-war? Though, I still remain baffled as to why the extra leaves were required.
Would animosity between Bishop Chavasse and Rev Coop have caused a change in the design of the badge, particularly as it would remove the relevance of the 5+5 leaves?
The 7+7 was clearly worn, as shown by Peter's photo of Lt Pegge's tunic.
Another possibility might be that the 7+7 design was originally an unadopted design to be used by the West Lancashire Division, pre-1916, and that when the 55th came into being, the design was modified, to show 5+5, making the design relevant for adoption by the division. Are there any illustrations or is there any info to support this possibility?
Peter, does the photo (I'm assuming that it's a postcard) of Rev Coop have a date on the reverse? This image looks to be pre-war as he looks a lot younger than in the group photos in his book (plus, no military post nominals). He was vicar of St Catherine's, Abercromby Square, between 1905 and 1920. Born in 1869, he'd have been between ages 36 and 51 whilst at St Catherine's; in the photo, he looks closer to 36.
Regards,
George

[Mike Jackson]

This document shows the formation signs of the TA Divisions as they were in 1938. 55 Div springs no surprises, but the sign attributed to 44 (HC) Div is very unusual. I should very much like to see evidence of this design being worn on uniform.
TA Divs as at 1938.01.jpg

[Peter Brydon]

George,

The information about the relationship between the Reverend Coop and his Bishop was merely an aside ( one those possibly pointless facts that I find of great interest ).

The post card of Rev Coop is I am afraid undated.

My understanding has always been ( and this has no evidence to support it ) is that the formation sign as originally adopted had seven leaves per side, but shortly after it was realised that if the number of leaves was reduced to 5 per side that would reflect the number of the Division and so the change was made.

Peter

[Peter Brydon]

I am not sure if these extracts from the 55th Division Comrades Association Year Book 1920 will be of interest to many.

Amongst the things that might be of some interest- The Association as selling "Divisional Roses for the Tunics " i.e. div signs for 6d per pair.

Colonel, The Rev. J.O. Coop DSO,TD. was Chairman of the Executive Committee.

Finally, "The Committee have taken over from the Graves Registration Committee the responsibility for the Registration, Preservation and upkeep of the Graves of those Officers, NCO`s and Men who lie buried in France and Flanders. A metallic disc bearing the Divisional Rose and Motto is being placed on each Grave..............."

P.B.