27th Lancers

[Keith Blakeman]

I'm not so sure. Sweathole or not those badges with all g/m pennons tend to have indentations to the rear of the lances rather than be completely smooth. This (smooth) feature is usually found on the one with nickel lower pennons and whether these are genuine is debatable, however the detail to the upper pennons is very good. Firmin are the maker behind this (all g/m pennon) version but I'm sure that Gaunt also made them, both companies made all the other WW2 cavalry badges.

There are been plenty of threads about the 27th Lancers on here and I don't think anyone has ever come up with anything definitive.

[peter seaman]

The Firmin 27th Lancers head dress badge is perfectly fine. The 27th Lancers badges with all gm lance pennons are other ranks patterns. Those with the lower halves of the lance pennons in wm/sp are officers patterns. The Gaunt produced 27th Lancers badges tend to have flat backs to the lance pennons, however, the problem I have is this, in the thirty years that I have been interested in, and collecting to, these six war raised cavalry regiments I have yet to see a Gaunt named 27th Lancers head dress badge.
Gaunt restruck all the WW2 raised cavalry (22D - 27L) badges in the early 1970's. In my book "For Hostilities Only" I give the dates etc of these restrikes. The 27th Lancers head dress badge attached to the Sealed Pattern Card is by Firmin. Card Ref. No. CB 0284 Pattern No. 11700. Date approved 1 - 5 -41. Authority 20/RAC/77. Currently I have no proof at all that Gaunt produced 27th Lancers head dress badges for wear in WW2?.
Peter

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by peter seaman

The Firmin 27th Lancers head dress badge is perfectly fine. The 27th Lancers badges with all gm lance pennons are other ranks patterns. Those with the lower halves of the lance pennons in wm/sp are officers patterns. The Gaunt produced 27th Lancers badges tend to have flat backs to the lance pennons, however, the problem I have is this, in the thirty years that I have been interested in, and collecting to, these six war raised cavalry regiments I have yet to see a Gaunt named 27th Lancers head dress badge.
Gaunt restruck all the WW2 raised cavalry (22D - 27L) badges in the early 1970's. In my book "For Hostilities Only" I give the dates etc of these restrikes. The 27th Lancers head dress badge attached to the Sealed Pattern Card is by Firmin. Card Ref. No. CB 0284 Pattern No. 11700. Date approved 1 - 5 -41. Authority 20/RAC/77. Currently I have no proof at all that Gaunt produced 27th Lancers head dress badges for wear in WW2?.
Peter

Peter,

I'd be very interested on your views on this Gaunt badge as the branding is what we generally call the 'safe' small font without the full stop between Gaunt & London.

There's no sweathole but I'm not overly bothered as Gaunt's 25th DG doesn't have one either, but the nickel bottom pennons are heavy overlays and don't sit flush with the upper part.

I have others which I'll post seperately as not to confuse things.

[Keith Blakeman]

I have a pair of what I think are bimetal collars with a circular sweathole behind and elephants head and two each on the lower pennons which have flush overlays, these are smooth backed with one loop behind the crown and another at the bottom of the trunk.

I also have another pair, this time the head is rivetted, no sweaholes to the pennons again flush, smooth backed and with three lugs one on each pennon and one at the base of the trunk.

Finally there's a three looped version, the best finished one I have which is probably an officers badge. It's smooth backed and with no sweaholes or rivets at all. The pennons are also flush.

Scans of all these can be seen on the oldest link to earlier thread posted by Andy above.

Keith

[peter seaman]

Hello Keith,
Personally I have not encountered a Gaunt made 27L officers pattern head dress badge fitted with a slider amongst the many that I've seen belonging to former members of the regiment. However, I have 27L officer pattern head dress badges and two pairs of collars with the applied wm/sp lower pennon sections which do stand proud of the gilding metal and not fitted flush. These, although not maker marked can be identified as coming from a Firmin die. I also have several un-named 27L badges, both head dress and collars which differ slighly to the Firmin made ones, now, they may well be Gaunts but I do not have a gauranteed WW2 made Gaunt named badge for comparison. That's the problem. During my research I failed to find any record whatsoever which suggested that other suppliers to Ordnance made 27L insignia. The search goes on!!.
Peter

[peter seaman]

Hello Keith,
I have a pair of collars plus a single which follows the description that you give. Mine came to me from a 27L officer. The single has had the original slider removed and two copper loops fitted one each behind the lance pennons. I have seen several such conversions of officers pattern badges belonging to former officers. When questioned none could recall having this change of fastening done, several said that that's how they were when indented for via the QM or Tailors. So, possibly a manufacturers conversion?
27L insignia with three loops without question is/are collar badges. Though I must say that I haven't encountered any that are flat backed without sweatholes. The only 27L head dress badge that I have which is flat backed without any sweatholes is the officers OSD bronze.
Peter

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by peter seaman

Hello Keith,
Personally I have not encountered a Gaunt made 27L officers pattern head dress badge fitted with a slider amongst the many that I've seen belonging to former members of the regiment. However, I have 27L officer pattern head dress badges and two pairs of collars with the applied wm/sp lower pennon sections which do stand proud of the gilding metal and not fitted flush. These, although not maker marked can be identified as coming from a Firmin die. I also have several un-named 27L badges, both head dress and collars which differ slighly to the Firmin made ones, now, they may well be Gaunts but I do not have a gauranteed WW2 made Gaunt named badge for comparison. That's the problem. During my research I failed to find any record whatsoever which suggested that other suppliers to Ordnance made 27L insignia. The search goes on!!.
Peter

Thanks Peter,

It's all good fun. There would seem to be a third maker though, I wonder who it may have been?

Another thought, is the bimetal pennon version with the slotted sweathole, re-inforcing bar above the elephants head and with a slider one of the 70's Gaunt re-strikes? I've always had my doubts about this version of the badge as the metal is a horrible colour which doesn't clean up. Also with bimetal ones being for officers, having a slider would make it incorrect?

[peter seaman]

You're quite right there does appear to be another maker of 27L head dress badges. I failed to get any answers from Gaunts to my many questions regarding their 22D - 27L badges. Firmins answered one of my e-mails, and that was only to say "thank you for showing an interest in Firmins". I wondered if as these firms will not deal with an individual would the Forum have a better chance of a more positive response?.

I'm aware of the badge that you mention as I have one similar. When I picked mine up some years ago I thought that it was coated/varnished but, as you say it's just a different coloured gilding metal. It's certainly not from a Firmin or Gaunt die.

Peter

[Lancer 17]

Gentlemen

Thanks for the information on this and many other threads, I am a new member located down under so I have had access to a good source of information until now.

I have what I now assume to be a 27 L collar, it is 36 mm top to bottom and has 2 lugs, the pennons have a white metal section, on the back it has 2 sweat holes in each pennon and one behind the elephants head, the back of thr badge is smooth. Can I have your oppinions please.

I assume that the cap badge should have a slider and sweat holes on the back, could some one please put some measurements up for a cap badge.

Thanks

Phil.

[peter seaman]

Hello Phil,
The 27L caps and collars are the same size roughly. There is no distinct differnce in size between them. The caps and collars having the lower portions of the lance pennons in w/m or s/p are officers patterns. I have seen the same patterns where the sliders have been removed and two loops fitted one each behind the lance pennons.

Peter

[jeep]

Anyone have any thoughts about this cast badge? Two silver lugs, but the L/H one has been soldered back on.

[peter seaman]

Hello John,
It's a poor example really of an other ranks pattern 27L head dress badge. Other ranks of the regiment didn't wear collar badges. Personally I would relegate it to the spares box. Apologies for being blunt but it is dreadful copy. When the 27L was ordered for embarkation to the Middle East the QM's G1098 stores stock included two cap badges per man plus 10%. On that basis I don't see why they would have to resort to casting insignia.
Peter

[jeep]

Apologies for being blunt but it is dreadful copy

Peter. No need for apologies. I have always regarded it as a duffer!

[RMR]

Hi all,I would be pleased to receive opinions on this badge I received this morning an ebay purchase their is no sweathole behind the elephants head it does have a indentation there.Thanks Roger

[peter seaman]

Good Evening Roger,

The 27th Lancers badge isn't right for the following reasons. The elephants head has a flat appearance and the markings on the trunk go too high up. The tusks are straight and should curve slightly outwards, the left hand one, as viewed, being the longest. There should also be defined eyeballs.

I'm not an expert on sliders but the one attached to the badge does look suspect compared to other known original Firmin produced 27L head dress badges in that it is too wide.

All good wishes,

Peter