Naval Badge Identification

[Noiseboyz3]

What does the bull’s head above the executive curl mean?

[Darrell]

Hi

Someone down in NS asked me the same Q. I thought perhaps I would pose it here but......beat. Guess I'm slow even for an Army guy!!

The Offr's ship badge is HMCS Harry DeWolf, the lead offshore patrol vessel for the RCN. Something to do with that?

Is it a Bull's head? Long horns. Looks more like a Mantis head or head on lowrider. I'd be interested in hearing what it is all about. Modifying badges of rank on the NCD's would need some sort of approval, I'd think.

regards
Darrell

[Walt P]

Hello Gents,

I posted a query to the MILNET.CA navy section, along with the photo. This is the reply I received:

"That's the mark of the "Bull Sub". A colloquial title for the most senior sub-lieutenant."

If I discover further info, I'll be certain to update. Cheers,

Walt

UPDATE: "It's embroidered on to the slip on. It's not to be worn off the ship."

[mike_vee]

Found a video clip of a 'Tiger Cruise' on Canada Day , one of the comments backs up what you've heard.

That's the "Bull Sub" hes the most senior of the Sub Lieutenant. Typically the highest ranking Jr. Officer. He had a bulls head on his rank.

.

[Darrell]

Hi Walt

Thanks for that. I still cannot understand how it can be on the the NCD rank flap. That's not a device easily modified without some Authority.
Because
I'm guessing with the neutering of their non-commissioned rank that we'll see the same for this title. "Cattle Sub"? "Bovine Sub"? "Cow" is female-gendering, right?

Speaking to a few senior RCN CPO1 types recently, I suggested that, with the Sailor/Seaman swop, Boatswain and Coxswain will have to go too!! Not well received!!!

regards
Darrell

[Walt P]

Originally Posted by Darrell

Hi Walt

Thanks for that. I still cannot understand how it can be on the the NCD rank flap. That's not a device easily modified without some Authority.
Because
I'm guessing with the neutering of their non-commissioned rank that we'll see the same for this title. "Cattle Sub"? "Bovine Sub"? "Cow" is female-gendering, right?

Speaking to a few senior RCN CPO1 types recently, I suggested that, with the Sailor/Seaman swop, Boatswain and Coxswain will have to go too!! Not well received!!!

regards
Darrell

Too funny Darrell , but sadly probably true.

More info from the lads over at MILNET.CA regarding the Bull Sub:

"An unofficial position (although codified to varying extents in different Wardroom mess constitutions) held by a Sub-Lieutenant on board. Typically a senior NWO SLt, although some ships open up the position to engineering and log.

From a mess perspective, they help the SLt cadre speak as a unified group (with numbers that can sway many mess votes) and act as a liaison between the SLts and the other parties in the Wardroom. They typically also have control over a "Bull Sub Chit", which is a standing authority to spend a predetermined amount of mess funds per month for social events or the like (in reality often tightly controlled by the XO).

From a divisional perspective, if the Bull Sub is a senior NWO SLt they will often act as the Navigating Officer's 2IC/Adjutant/Enforcer/etc. to assign taskings, compile admin for the division, etc. In a FG ship with 10-15 NWO SLts it becomes an important role to allow the NavO to have time to complete their non-divisional duties."

Walt

[Walt P]

Originally Posted by mike_vee

Found a video clip of a 'Tiger Cruise' on Canada Day , one of the comments backs up what you've heard
.

Thanks Mike! Take care,

Walt

[tafh63]

That makes sense. There was, maybe still is, a similar tradition in the American navy.

In the United States Navy the senior ranking ensign (equivalent to a second lieutenant, sub-lieutenant or pilot officer) on the lineal list of any warship, naval station, squadron, etc. was commonly referred to as the "Bull Ensign". This was a strictly unofficial custom, see link below, with no substance in naval regulations.

As far as identifying who these individuals were, based on their uniform, was rather difficult. In the USN no modification on either the sleeve rank insignia or shoulder boards was allowed. The most common form of identification might be the word "Bull" inscribed on the gold bar device worn on working/service dress khakis, working blues, aviation greens, garrison caps (forage caps for folks in this forum) and sundry outer garments (i.e. raincoats, etc.). These devices were usually passed down from one "Bull Ensign" to the next.

I've provided a link to a brief article on the matter to be found on the Naval Heritage Command's website.

Link: https://www.history.navy.mil/researc...ll-ensign.html

[Home Guard]

Well DARN! And I was thinking he was from my alma mater - University of Texas - "Hook'em Horns"!!!

Seriously, very interesting. I wonder how the tradition came about?

Terry