"Georgian crown/GR" buttons- ID please

[charlie962]

If correct, what would these buttons have been used for, and during what period? There is a problem (?) with the larger one which is probably well known to you experts. The smaller is probably OK.

Any thoughts please?
Charlie

GR obv.jpg

[Cribyn]

Hello Charlie

Nice buttons but as for ID, nobody knows! At least I have been trying to identify these for quite a few years with no firm result - must admit I have not tried on here though!

It has been suggested that they are court buttons but the backmark is much too late for the 'GR' to be any of the Georges.

If your large button is the same as mine then it has a "Pitt & Co 31 Maddox St London W" backmark which dates it to after 1896, so well outside the Georgian period!

It has also been suggested to me that it is an officers' mess waiter's button but for an unknown regiment. The obvious choice would be the 'Gloucestershire Regiment' but I have a mess waiter's button of theirs, very different, and as far as I know they only used the one type at this time.

A mess waiter's button would make more sense but the problem is there are lots of other possibilities, livery, hotel and so on.

It has also been suggested that they are restrikes of a general pattern Georgian Militia button but I think they are too large for that but who knows!

I hope someone on here can finally nail this one for both of us!

Regards
Roger

[btns]

There are two series of these buttons.
One is Georgian and the other (identified) series was made during the 20th century.
Please add pictures of the backs of these buttons. This will enable us to date them.

[charlie962]

Here is the reverse. As spotted by Roger, the problem is the maker. There was a label attached. I will copy it when I find it!

Charlie
GR rev.jpg

[btns]

The large button is 20th century.
Is the cross-section of the small button's shank circular or D-shaped?

I will post the large button's name in the Pitt books later today.

[btns]

As promised:
The entry number of the Pitt sample book is No. 169
The title is Grenadier Gd.

It is from one of three button books auctioned off in 2009.
Now it is up to the forum to decide what it could have been.

To help him out I am supplying its neighbours (one has a date)
No. 167: South Andaman R.V. (atn 25-11-97)
No. 168: white metal Gordon Highlanders
No. 170: Coldstream - flat WM "Nulli Secundus" button
No. 171 - not listed

[charlie962]

btns
1)I am not sure what you are saying. The button I have had since the '70s. I have looked at the label attached by a previous owner which says:
'Restrike by Pitt from original dies. They took over Boggett and Reynolds 1870s. They refused to use the makers mark.'

2) the small button has a round hole in the shank. Is that what you asked about or do you mean the profile of the wire itself?
Thanks,Charlie

[btns]

1. Your restrike was in an original Pitt sample book. This restrike dates from around 1897. The text on the cardboard says: Grenadier Gd.
2. I mean the profile of the wire shank.

[Cribyn]

Hello btns

Many thanks for the information.

I am quite happy to accept that this button is a restrike but I am not so sure that it is for the Grenadier Guards - I know you are only stating what the pattern book says!

There is an article in the Journal of Army Historical research by Bill Carman on "Early Buttons of the Foot Guards" and there is no mention of this pattern of button being used by the Grenadier Guards. Obviously there is always the possibility that it was a pattern not known when Bill wrote his article or that it was not a coatee button but one intended for some other uniform.

Have you any thoughts yourself as to whether it is Grenadier Guards or not?

Roger

[btns]

Roger seems to have passed the buck back to me.
Good job Roger, block known escape routes and let me find my way out.

The Pitt sample book reference numbers with dates given:
167. 25-11-97
169. Grenadier Gds
176. 25-5-03
It means the button was produced between 1897 and 1903.
The entry date may be the order date or the date the button was added to the book.

I know that Pitt reused obsolete button dies for new customers. Over time one particular die was supplied to 3 different customers.

I have two options:
- a mess waiter button (Roger has not mentioned this option. I doubt it)
- an order for a historical costume (theatre, parade, party)

Queen Victoria's silver Jubilee was on 22 June 1897.
The Grenadier Guards were there, but in 'modern' uniforms.
Here is a surviving uniform: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL30833/

It may be possible that other parades included Grenadier Guards in an 1837 outfit. Pitt may have selected this die to supply buttons. People participating in these 1900s parades put in a lot of effort and money.

I am adding the real thing. A couple of years I put in a low bid expecting to bid on a restrike. And that is what everyone else thought. The seller had not added a picture of the reverse. When it arrived it was a genuine issue. Most likely it does not have a backmark.
It is 28 mm. The 1897 restrike is listed as Grenadier Guards.
I think the original button was used by either a civil servant or at court.
I doubt that it is military, unless it is pre 1800.

Now, Roger, back to you ..

[Cribyn]

Hello btns

As always, a very comprehensive reply and plenty of 'food for thought', as we say, thank you.

I have always (reluctantly) assumed this Pitt backmarked button was a restrike (as much as I would have loved it to be a mess waiters' button!). You have pinned the production dates down very nicely.

I think you are quite probably right when you say that Pitt may have been asked to produce buttons for some purpose and decided to use this button die as although the design is quite simple it is also quite striking in a way.

I am not a betting man but if I were, I think I would say that the original was indeed a civilian button rather than military, possibly a court button.

All the best
Roger

[charlie962]

Thank you to you two experts. I will come back on the shank profile when I have it to hand tomorrow.
I think the remark on the label implies that it was a restrike after the takeover of Boggetts and Reynolds (if indeed they did) and that the original die may have been from one of those other companies? Or do I read too much into it?
And the note I quote on another thread that Pitts referred to a button POH as Princes own Hussars when it should be (Pembrokeshire?) Otter Hounds suggest descriptions not always 100%

Charlie

[grenadierguardsman]

Were not saying that this button is to the Grenadier Guards, are we.
Andy

[Cribyn]

Hello Andy

It would seem that the entry in the Pitt Pattern Book for this button said "No. 169 Grenadier Gd" but I think we all agree that it is not a regulation pattern button used by the Grenadier Guards. However unlikely it may seem, it is possible that the reproduction buttons were ordered by the Grenadier Guards for some reason, hence the notation.

Of course, it is always possible that buttons were, at some point, removed from and replaced incorrectly in the Pattern Book and this is why the description is slightly confusing.

Roger

[grenadierguardsman]

If the button was produced between 1897-1903, with GR that is strange.
Andy