What does “NZMGS” stand for??????

[fougasse1940]

Although well outside my scope of interest, this has to be one of the better threads on the forum. Printworthy, please get in touch with the MHS.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

[Quicksilver]

Brent,

Most interesting to learn of the early signallers trade badge for the Wellington Guard. Thats new to me. I have some info on the early units for signalling in New Zealand.

I can give you some information directly from my book, but all my files and notes are packed away and I don’t expect to have access to them for many months. There are about 20 boxes of notes, archive material and files for world wide signalling – Argentina to Zimbabwe.

Suggest you have a look at the book which you can order through your library. It is 296 pages with lots of photos and data.

In response to your question what earlier units did we have for signals, well we can divide that into British units which were soon replaced by Armed Constabulary and later the NZ Army. 9Swift and Sure: A History fo the Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals and Army Signalling in New Zealand. 1996.


Briefly:

1860 Sgt William Marjouram R.A. devised a system that used signal masts to signal between stockades in the New Plymouth area. Marjouram had been trained in the latest signalling techniques (semaphore) in Britain.

1863. Scotsman Corporal Alexander Brodie R.E. trained in England in fortification and military telegraphy. (Telegraphy = Morse Code using a line to join stations). Created a military telegraph line from Auckland to and then branched out to Cambridge up the Waikato River and another branch to Te Awamutu. This was cutting edge technology of the time – same time as the American Civil War. The telegraph followed Gen Camerons advance into the Waikato region and was very very successful.

The NZ Armed Constabulary had its posts connected by telegraphy.

Semaphore was taught in many units, infantry, engineers and artillery and later telephony was introduced. However, dedicated signal units using either or both semaphore and telegraphy are few.

The Torpedo Corps had part of its training dedicated to telegraphy in 1889 by Capt Falconer ex R.E. Tasmania.

Vol Cycle Corps raised in 1898. These were in Auckland, Wellington, Nelson Christchurch and Dunedin. They had signalling as part of their duties and had signalling detachments from 1905. In 1909 The Auckland Cycle and Signalling Company was raised from College Rifles. This was the unit Cyril Bassett VC was in. Its badge of College Rifles was the basis for the New Zealand Signal Corps headdress badge.

When the two signal corps combined as part of the Engineer Signal Service in 1913 the NZP&TC were essentially the Post Office in uniform. This is why they provided so many units within NZ during the First World War. The relationship between the two was never very clear. Both the Divisional Signal Company in France and the Signal Troop in the Middle East wore the NZ Signal Corps cap badge. The Post Office of course provided some very skillful telegraphists and the wireless operators of the ANZAC Wireless Squadron NZ Pack Troop wore the NZP&TC badge. They eventually left Mesopotamia (Iraq) and ended up in Persia with Dunster Force before being sent off to France in 1918. It would appear they became Divisional Signals badges from that time.

The first Signal Badge (cap badge and collars) in New Zealand would have to be the old College Rifles badge from 1909 - Auckland Cycle and Signal Company. Attached are some cloth trade badges for signals. The trade patch for Field Telegraph has Robert's lable on the back as does the crossed flags badge next too it. Below is a wire wove badge. The attachment with the khaki crossed flags is Robert's made also. The last attachment shows the 1936 wireless operators badge with the winged lightning, and a pair of DR badges which are undated.
Rgsd Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Tinto, Fougasse, I am glad you are enjoying the thread. The reason why I posted it on this forum (And on a NZ forum as well), was because one of New Zealand’s more colouful militaria/curio dealers purchased a bulk lot of NZMGS shoulder titles off Ebay, and then started selling them on our local auction site Trademe.
What concerned me, was that he made suggestions of what NZMGS could stand for, rather than just stating what it was, which I found to be a little misleading.
So of course I pointed out in a nice way what NZMGS stood for, as he seemed so confused. Sadly this did not go well, as the reply that I got was more of an attack on me personally.
As this dealer has a few more of these badges to sell and has not changed the words in his auction, I have made it so that if anyone ever googles “NZMGS” they will find my two threads on the first page.

Cliff, fantastic badges and post, you have touched on all the areas except for badge size that I have questions on.
First up, I would love to see some photos of the backs of your badges.

I am currently working 24/7 at the moment, so won’t make it to the library for at least another two weeks.
I will try to put a list of my questions together on the weekend, but have friends over, so it could be Monday or Tuesday.

Brent

[Quicksilver]

Send me a message brent re the cloth patches you wish to see from the back.

A few more pix. The titles were worn by NZ Signal Service in WW1. ANZAC Wireless Section (prob worn by both Aus and NZ, but def NZ). NZ WIRELESS and WIRELESS both worn in Middle East in Palestine and or Mesopotamia. SIGNAL SERVICE worn in Europe and perhaps elsewhere.
Quicksilver

[Quicksilver]

The New Zealand Signal Corps cap badge is in two sizes. It is my understanding that the mounted rifles had the larger version. Also it is my understanding that when the Corps became part of the Engineer Signal Service in 1913 that Engineer collars were worn. My guess is that it did not happen all at once. College Rifles, the forerunner of the NZ Signal Corps, badges shown so you can see the similarity.
Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Brent

Most interesting to learn of the early signallers trade badge for the Wellington Guard. Thats new to me. I have some info on the early units for signalling in New Zealand.

It is indeed most interesting and certainly sounds impressive going by the description, we can only hope one may have survived and is sitting unidentifiied in someones collection. From your response, it would be the earliest known NZ signalling proficiency badge.

For the benefit of those who don’t have Corbett’s NZ badge bible, the crossed flag signalling proficiency badge is not mentioned until the 11th September 1895 NZ Dress Regulations.
“Men who have obtained certificates of proficiency for three years in succession in gunnery and sub-mining will wear a distinguishing badge of crossed guns or torpedoes.
In engineering, an additional star below the cross flags.
In signalling, a star below the cross flags.”

My questions for Cliff are— Are their any earlier NZ documents that approve the use of the cross flags???? And when were they first authorised by the British????
Have you heard of “Field Engineering” having a star above crossed flags as a badge before they adopted the crossed picks in 1906????

From a Wellington Regiment perspective, the Wellington Battalion was reorganised as a Garrison Corps in early February 1889. The signalling squads of the Battalion were at that time placed under the command of Major Loveday, who carried out the first battalion signalling squad instruction on the 27th February 1889 at the Mount Cook Barracks.
The intersing thing is that the Comandant of the NZ Forces Major-General Edwards didn’t recommend the incorporation of a Signalling Corps at each of the four main military centres until he submitted his annual report on the 17th July 1890. As such I can only speculate that General Edwards modeled his recommendations from the Wellington Battalion.

My questions for Cliff is— Do you know if any of the other main centres conducted signalling training at Battalion level prior to 1890?????

Now on to the cloth badges that Cliff has posted, the one I have posted is the only one I have, so it is a pleasure to see Cliff’s badges, especially the red Field Telegraph proficiency badge (Gold telegraph pole for distinguished).
The first mention of this badge that I can find is contained in the 8th February 1906 NZ Dress Regulations.

It is interesting to note that all the Percy Robert (French, so pronounced Rowbear) made crossed flag badges look the same, and the two unmarked badges are very different. This suggests to me that a different maker made them?

Percy Robert died on the14th November 1928, at Palmerston North.
The business continued on at Palmerston North after Percy’s death, WW2 and post war NZ cloth badges are commonly found backed with Palmerston North newspaper.
As far as I am awear, the Robert family business is still going in Palmerston North.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

1860 Sgt William Marjouram R.A. devised a system that used signal masts to signal between stockades in the New Plymouth area. Marjouram had been trained in the latest signalling techniques (semaphore) in Britain.

As my ancestor was appointed as ‘Native Assessor’ for land claims to the Government during the New Zealand Land Grab War of 1860 - 1872, Sergeant Marjouram is indeed well known to me.

Sergeant Marjouram was a devoutly Christian man who kept a detailed diary of his military service. After six years service in New Zealand, Marjouram was invalided back to England and died shortly afterwards. His diary was edited by Sergeant William White R.A. and published by Nisbet & Co. in 1862, to raise funds for his widow and young daughter.

The book “Memorials of Sergeant Marjouram, Royal Artillery” is in fact the first credible account that the Government was compelled to take up arms in defence of the authority of the Crown and that the settlers of Taranaki brought on the war in their anxiety to obtain land.

It is my understanding Sergeant Marjouram began construction of his ‘line of sight telegraph’ on the10th April 1860, building yardarms at Bell Block-house, Omata Stockade, and on Marsland Hill.
Hung from the yardarms were several balls that I presume were raised and lowered into select positions representing certain letters. (Similar to Morse codes dot dot dash)
These would be observed by telescope and if required then relayed onto the next stockade. (Lanterns were used for signaling at night)

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

1863. Scotsman Corporal Alexander Brodie R.E. trained in England in fortification and military telegraphy. (Telegraphy = Morse Code using a line to join stations). Created a military telegraph line from Auckland to and then branched out to Cambridge up the Waikato River and another branch to Te Awamutu. This was cutting edge technology of the time – same time as the American Civil War. The telegraph followed Gen Camerons advance into the Waikato region and was very very successful.

That is very interesting, I did not know of Corporal Brodie.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

The NZ Armed Constabulary had its posts connected by telegraphy.

Cliff, I am a huge Armed Constabulary fan.
It is worth mentioning that the NZ Telegraph Company’s advance into disputed tribal lands created much of the tension during the war. The Armed Constabulary not only protected the advance, they helped with installing of the poles. (Maoris also made good money suppling telegraph poles and in many cases the labour to erect them)
Once installed, to protect the telegraph detachements of Armed Constabulary were garrisoned along its length.

It is my understanding that the Armed Constabulary had men who new how to use the telegraph, most likely two at a garrison, but by this time it was late in the war and no specialised signal unit was formed within the AC.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

The Torpedo Corps had part of its training dedicated to telegraphy in 1889 by Capt Falconer ex R.E. Tasmania.

Captain Falconer was the Wellington Naval Instructor, I have records of his instruction which include signalling that date back to 1887.

[fougasse1940]

The Britisg flags crossed were originally a prize badge and an AO of 1887 awarded it. From Edwards & Langley "British Army Proficiency Badges" p. 16.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

[Quicksilver]

A badge of crossed flags worked in worsted, provided they had passed as regimental signallers and maintained that standard of efficiency. This was for the Indian Army in 1889. See pp 41 History of the Corps of Signals Volume 1. This is the history of the Indian Corps of Signals.

Brent, I went through half a dozen boxes tonight but no sign of my archives for RNZSigs history. Still another dozen boxes to check out - perhaps at the weekend.
Quicksilver.

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

The Britisg flags crossed were originally a prize badge and an AO of 1887 awarded it. From Edwards & Langley "British Army Proficiency Badges" p. 16.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

The Britisg flags crossed were originally a prize badge and an AO of 1887 awarded it. From Edwards & Langley "British Army Proficiency Badges" p. 16.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

A badge of crossed flags worked in worsted, provided they had passed as regimental signallers and maintained that standard of efficiency. This was for the Indian Army in 1889. See pp 41 History of the Corps of Signals Volume 1. This is the history of the Indian Corps of Signals.

1887 and 1889, that helps explain why it was not included in the 1889 NZ Dress Regs, and makes the Wellington Guards badge that much more special.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Vol Cycle Corps raised in 1898. These were in Auckland, Wellington, Nelson Christchurch and Dunedin. They had signalling as part of their duties and had signalling detachments from 1905.

Wellington Volunteer Cycle Corps formed 18th May 1898.
Dunedin Volunteer Cycle Corps formed 20th May 1898.
Christchurch Volunteer Cycle Corps formed 20th May 1898.
Auckland Volunteer Cycle Corps, formed 14th August 1900, disbanded 25th November 1903.
Nelson College Volunteer Cycle Corps formed 24th May 1902, disbanded 28th February 1906.

During the year 1905, only the Dunedin Volunteer Cycle Corps and the Christchurch Volunteer Cycle Corps were gazetted to increase their company establishment to a total strength of 70. (A normal Cycle Company establishment was a minimun of 26 and a maximin of 34)
The increase of strength was “for the purpose of training detachments is signalling.”
The Signalling Detachment of a Cycle Corps consited of two Lieutenants, two Sergeants, two Corporals and 30 privates.

The signalling detachment of the Dunedin and the Christchurch Volunteer Cycle Corps were commonly refered to as the “Cycle and Signalling Company” and “Cycle and Signalling Corps” from 1905 onwards.
(Cycle Companies were attached to Infantry battalions, but were not lettered according to seniority in the battalion.)

Also in 1905 the Wellington, Auckland and Nelson military districts provided their Signalling detachments by increasing the Company establishment of the Wellington Post and Telegraph Rifle Volunteers, College Rifle Volunteers (Auckland), and the Stoke Rifle Volunteers (Nelson).
The Signalling Detachment strength for these three companies was the same as the Cycle Corps.
(These 3 Companies were also attached to Infantry battalions, but were lettered according to seniority in the battalion)

While I am on the 1905 period, it is worth mentioning that the greatest advocate and administrator for the reorganisation and expansion of the NZ military Forces during the period of 1903 to 1906 was Major General Babington.
General Babington’s 1904 annual report on the Defence Forces of the colony was submitted to Government on the 5th October, and his recommendations for reorganising the NZ Engineering Corps are worth metioning. —

“(1) That the companies be increased in strength to 100, divided into a field engineering section of 50 men, a telegraph section of 25, and a signalling section of 25.
(2) That siege works, railways, and telegraphs (theory only) should be removed from the syllabus of the field engineering section, and “hasty demolitions” introduced, the subjects of the telegraph and signalling sections remaining as at present.

The establishment of the NZ Volunteer engineering corps was gazetted in May 1905 as follows. —
The strength of these companies was raised to 105 men.
One Captain, four Lieutenants, one Company Sergeant Major, one Quartermaster Sergeant, six Sergeants, six Corporals, six Lance Corporals, two Buglers and seventy-eight Sappers.
Each company was divided into a field-engineering section of fifty, a signalling section of twenty-five and a field-telegraph section of twenty-five.
(This fits with the introduction of Cliff’s telegraph badge in the 1906 NZ dress regs)

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

In 1909 The Auckland Cycle and Signalling Company was raised from College Rifles. This was the unit Cyril Bassett VC was in. Its badge of College Rifles was the basis for the New Zealand Signal Corps headdress badge.

This would suggest that the College Rifles Signalling Detachment was converted to a Cycle and Signalling Company in 1909.
The big questions are — did the whole company take up bikes???? or was it just the signalling detachment????
There must be some sort of gazette notice that this is mentioned in?????
Is it possible that they never even changed to a cycle company????

[Quicksilver]

Brent,
An Auckland solicitor, T H Dawson, a signals enthusiast, tranformed the College Rifle Volunteers (Auckland) into a Cycle and Signalling Company from 9March 1909. This was the first time the word Signalling appeared in a unit title and this small company must be considered the first dedicated signal unit in the New Zealand Army. They probably had cycles but none appear in any of the photos I have of the unit, two of which you will see in my RNZ Sigs book. None show up in the College Rifles Rugby Football club collection either which I have had access to.
As regards Babington shortly after his appointment as Commandant of the NZ Land Forces in 1902, he began an advocacy of the establishment and development of support arms. His initial plea was rejected on the argument that there was neither the need nor the funding to allow the development of supply, transport and ordnance corps. The following extract, also in my book, came from Lt Col G J Clayton and points to the deviousness of Babington in his battle with penny-pinching politicians:

Babbington by clever manipulation of existing corps, was able to establish a defacto signalling corps. Babington argued vainly that a properly organised signalling corps was essential if an army in the field was to be effectively controlled, without unnecessary waste of time or horse flesh. In an attempt to solve the complex problem of training signalling specilists Babington suggested that they be recruited from the trained signallers employed in the Post and Telegraph Department. Unfortunately for Babington, his arguments for a separate signal corps did not win the necessary political approval. However he was able to obtain approval for the reorg of both the Cycle and Engineer Corps. Approval was granted for selected members of the Cycle Corps to be trained as signallers and Engineer units were reorganised into three sections:- Field Engineers, telegraphic and signallers.
There was also the Artillery Signal Detachments too.
Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Cliff, interestingly I was working up to that I believe Captain Dawson is the key to the mystery behind the Signal Corps badge.
Lieutenant Dawson was elected of the Captain of the Auckland College Rifles when Major C. T. Major resigned in October 1906, and was the man most responsible for training the College Rifles Signalling Detachment.
Captain Dawson was also signalling staff officer for the Auckland district.

Just so I am getting this all correct.
The whole of the Auckland College Rifles was converted into the Auckland Cycle and Signalling Company?????
As the name was changed this required a Gazette notice, so I am assuming this is where you got the date 9th March 1909????

General Babington was a true visionary and I believe much of the recognition that General Godley received was largely due to the efforts of what Babbington had started.
The following is an extract from a post that I did on the NZ Veterinary Corps and their badges.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

On the 10th June 1906, New Zealands Prime Minister Richard Seddon died of a heart attack.
As Minister of Defence, Seddon was the man most responsible for rejecting the requests of General Babington’s annual defence reports. Having been Premier for 14 years, Seddon had seen many recommendations by Babington’s predecessor’s turn out to be failures, costing ridiculous amounts of money.

[Quicksilver]

Brent,
Cpl Alexander Brodie is considered the Grandfather of the Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals and Capt Dawson the Father of the Corps. There are a couple of good pix of Dawson in my book.

As regards the authority of the dates, it has been 15 years since I wrote published that book and there has been a whole stack more so I dont recall the exact source but yes it will have been from the official government documentation.
Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Brent,
Cpl Alexander Brodie is considered the Grandfather of the Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals and Capt Dawson the Father of the Corps. There are a couple of good pix of Dawson in my book.

Interesting, I did not know that.

Altough its not a signal company as such, perhaps the New Zealand Torpedo Corps formed under Captain Maginnity in Wellington on the 1st September 1879 could be the long lost great uncle.
As part of its conditions for service, the NZTC was entirely formed from officers of the telegraph department due to their electrical knowledge. (Handy for torpedos and mines)

The original NZTC badge was made of silver and consisted of the monogram “N.Z.T.C” surmounted by a torpedo above which was a Queen Vic crown. Mr Hislop who was a jeweller in Lambton Quay produced the badges in November 1879.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

As regards the authority of the dates, it has been 15 years since I wrote published that book and there has been a whole stack more so I dont recall the exact source but yes it will have been from the official government documentation.

Cliff, its great to be able to put a date on these things, it makes it easier to search on the NZ Gazette database at the Wellinton Archives.

[Quicksilver]

Brent, I will see what I can find from my boxes of archives over the weekend. Depends how much spare time I have. I have something on a qualification which is a half pair of flags which will interest you.
BRgds
Cliff

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Interesting, I did not know that.

Altough its not a signal company as such, perhaps the New Zealand Torpedo Corps formed under Captain Maginnity in Wellington on the 1st September 1879 could be the long lost great uncle.
As part of its conditions for service, the NZTC was entirely formed from officers of the telegraph department due to their electrical knowledge. (Handy for torpedos and mines)

The original NZTC badge was made of silver and consisted of the monogram “N.Z.T.C” surmounted by a torpedo above which was a Queen Vic crown. Mr Hislop who was a jeweller in Lambton Quay produced the badges in November 1879.



Cliff, its great to be able to put a date on these things, it makes it easier to search on the NZ Gazette database at the Wellinton Archives.