1916 GM Fakes

[Peter Brydon]

KLR,

I have also noticed the "reversed" bi metal badge badge on the Scottish site, obviously no more right than any of the other bi metal Liverpool Scottish( Kings ) glengarry badges but interestingly I think it mentions 3 lugs to the rear. I used to have something similar ( although white metal horse on brass saltire ).

I think these were of more recent manufacture than some of the other spurious bi metal badges that have been on sale recently and were presumably produced after 1992 when the Liverpool Scottish ceased to wear the Highland Brigade/Volunteers and resumed wearing the old badge of the 10th Kings.

I seem to recall these spurious items were being sold as NCO`s badges, perpetuating the myth in Bloomer and some other publications.

As you know the Liverpool Scottish were in the process of producing a MHS Special number to celebrate their centenary , recording their history and uniforms ( the plug regretably being pulled by the MHS committee on the grounds that the publication would have had limited interest among its membership, or so I was told )

As a start to the project, a list of all known insignia of the unit was drawn up and there is no mention of any bi metal glengarry badges.

Whilst we owe a debt to some of the authors of early works on badges,their works also contained inaccuracies,a lot of which are only coming to light now.

Peter

[GeorgeC]

Hi Alan. I've learned a lot about 1916 economy badges from this thread, especially that all-white metal badges didn't have economy versions. You mentioned the RWK as one example.

So, would you say the recently completed all-brass RWK on ebay
(180313161236) must be a fake? Is there anything else it can be (e.g. a territorial battalion or some such)? It looked OK to me otherwise, although there could well be something else I missed (?).

Also I'd be interested in your opinion (or anyone's) of the recently completed RIF economy on ebay (390015991359). I take it the RIF would have had an economy version. Is this a genuine one, do you think? I wondered about its slider compared with another recent ebay RIF, which looked thoroughly original but had been horribly overpolished.

[John Mulcahy]

The RIF badge is an absolute and total FAKE. Note, not a re-strike but a fake - do not waste your money.

It has been faked since at least the early 1980's.

There is an economy collar badge like this with loops, I know of two examples in Northern Ireland with great provenance.

One would think that the R.I.F. would have had an economy version however , the references (open to all at Kew) show quite clearly that the R.I.F. were specifically exempt by the War Office from having to be included in the (1916 economy) project. The reason for this is not known.

The first person to show proof of this on this forum was "KLR" who conducts superb, primary research on our hobby , if you use the search function you should find the thread. Likewise the Royal Dublin Fusiliers were exempt from the project. I take no interest in the R.W.K. so cannot comment on them.

John

[GeorgeC]

Many thanks, John. That answers my question about the RIF pretty emphatically. And, sorry, I now see that this question has been emphatically answered before in another thread. At least I was right to be suspicious of the one I was suspicious of, although not for the right reason.

[Alan O]

I agree with John here wholeheartedly. There is some oddity here as if ever there should have been an economy badge produced then it should have been for the RIF. They must have the longest production process as they are small, fiddly, two part and have overlaid parts. BUT for some unknown, as yet, reason they were not made in all brass. I can only speculate why - small Bns numbers? Regtl resistence?

I would add that while nearly all the other 'overlaid' badges were made in all brass it was not just the RIF that escaped this measure. I have yet to see a York and Lancaster economy badge. Cast brass examples do exist and I remember a dealer once claiming that there was a WW Two all brass badge, but that it it.

I have seen the fake RIF ones with JRGaunt.London sliders as sold by repro crooks. This was a undoubted fake mark and merely confirmed my opinion that this is a fake badge from a fake die.

As far as RWK goes, the badge is an old repro. The seller himself does not make an opinion on it or any of his badges but sells them with a very low start price and lets people make their own mind up. I am certain that this is a fake badge and it has the sort of toning indicative of an artificially aged badge made of yellow brass.

Normally you could consider a Blackended TF badge that has been polished but I cannot find any TF RWK or OTC regt who wore such a thing. You also get fake all brass RWK with lugs which are totally wrong - lugs were only used for RScots economys and sliders for the rest.

[GeorgeC]

Many thanks, Alan.

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

J,

Gaunts did not mark many (if any) of their ORs badges until the late 1930s at the earliest and even then they rarely marked them in WW2. It was not until the 1950s badges that it became the norm.

The only firm that seemed to have marked economy badges was FE Woodwards.

A

Alan,
I've been re-reading this thread in closer detail, mainly to establish whether an all GM Queen's badge I've had for ages is really a fake -- and I'm afraid it seems to match your first photo, although its (even shorter) slider is unmarked.
But its the question of marked 'economies' that I want to raise. Here are some pics of a Royal Sussex all-brass that I've also had for quite a long time, but its marked on the slider SMITH & WRIGHT LD BHA, so do I assume it's also a fake?

[Alan O]

The big companies did not mark OR badges supplied to the WD but there were some smaller companies that did. FE Woodwoods did mark their badges including its economies. Bosleys do sell the odd marked example.

Smith and Wright B'ham made 1950s a/a badges and I have not seen its mark on any other badge before. Makers mark to one side, the badge itself looks fine to me.

Alan

[Alan O]

If anyone is bidding on this manchester 'economy' http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Original-WW1-B...item2a032afbc6

then don't as it is 100% repro.

[KLR]

I know that S & W had big contracts in the 1st WW period - but no, I doubt they actually marked such badges at the time. The earliest S & W marked badge I have is a King's Regt 1950 pattern

[Sonofacqms]

I have a Royal West Kent Regt cap badge in gilding metal with traces of silver plating on it. I have had it for many years, bought from a shop that mainly sold medals. Although I have dismissed the idea that it is a 1916 economy, I am not going to consign it to the scrap bin, as to my mind it is a well made badge with some age to it.

I have thought that it could be made in g/m for silver plating for an officer, although it has a slider. Any thoughts anyone.

[Alan O]

You also find Camerons, Border regt and post 1920 Beds and herts like this. The latter is certainly not WW1.

Alan

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by KLR

I know that S & W had big contracts in the 1st WW period - but no, I doubt they actually marked such badges at the time. The earliest S & W marked badge I have is a King's Regt 1950 pattern

Julian

I am relatively certain that this Royal Irish Regiment (18th) is genuine and as you can see is marked.

John

[2747andy]

I think this is a good one!!! Not seen a restrike (RIR) with the strengthening, seems that S&W did name some of their earlier products?


Whoops! And here's another one!!

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=14631

Andy

[orasot]

I agree John, I'm pretty certain mine is right too, Wilf.