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  #1  
Old 22-12-14, 09:18 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
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Default Brigade badges

Perhaps Mike H or Hagwalther[Chris ] could give some help here
A novice question even after 40 years of collecting and a reasonable collection of a/a badges Since the brigade system was in use from 1958 -1968 ? after which the regiments started the ware their regimental badges Why are large number of brigade badges found with Gaunt B'ham as Gaunt only moved to Birmingham in the early 1970,s I would have suspected that there was no need to produce Brigade badges at this time
David
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  #2  
Old 23-12-14, 01:02 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 49lassiepen View Post
Perhaps Mike H or Hagwalther[Chris ] could give some help here
A novice question even after 40 years of collecting and a reasonable collection of a/a badges Since the brigade system was in use from 1958 -1968 ? after which the regiments started the ware their regimental badges Why are large number of brigade badges found with Gaunt B'ham as Gaunt only moved to Birmingham in the early 1970,s I would have suspected that there was no need to produce Brigade badges at this time
David
Hi David,

The earliest date for the Gaunt B'Ham mark, that I have found, is early 1967. This was for some Queen's Regt badges with brass sliders marked as such which fell to pieces under certain circumstances.

Assuming that the Queen's Regt badges were not made in January 1967 (the date of the official correspondence complaining about them) we can surmise that they were made in 1966 or earlier as they needed to have time to actually break apart before being complained about in Jan 1967. As stated, this is the earliest date that I have for the Gaunt B'Ham mark, as found via official documentation, and not the 1970's as some continue to state, without any providence, creating confusion to yourself and many others in this matter.

The other issue is that while many regimental battalions wore the brigade badge the TA battalion often did not and, instead, continued to wear the original regimental badge, albeit in A/A. This is the reason many uninformed collectors say that a lot of regimental A/A badges are fake or for ACF use only as the regiments in question were known to have worn the brigade badge at the time. Well, usually the regular regimental battalions did wear the brigade badge but, as already stated, the TA battalions often did not.

More info can be found on both the above points in a certain book (click link below) if you need references etc. to contemporary correspondence, actual examples, etc.

Regards

Chris

Last edited by hagwalther; 23-12-14 at 03:33 AM.
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  #3  
Old 23-12-14, 06:28 AM
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Mike H Mike H is offline
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As Chris said earlier Regs in the brigade badge TA in the regimental badge.After the Brigade system finished the sort of opposite occured
So we had, the Lowland Vols ,the Mercian vols etc etc. They wore the Brigade badge ,with collars if worn as the cap badge.

Last edited by Mike H; 23-12-14 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 23-12-14, 08:16 AM
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In the case of the Liverpool Scottish, the unit wore the badge of the Highland Brigade/Volunteers from 1967-1992 ( as shown on the Letterhead of the Liverpool Scottish Museum Trust ) before re adopting the old glengarry badge of the 10th ( Scottish ) Bn. Kings Liverpool Regiment.

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  #5  
Old 23-12-14, 08:47 AM
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Ditto with the Yorkshire Volunteers who wore the Yorkshire Brigade bade from around inception in 1967 until disbandment in 1993 whilst as an example of the Regulars The Prince Of Wales's Own Regiment OF Yorkshire ceased to wear the Brigade badge in 1971.

Last edited by guest123a; 23-12-14 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 23-12-14, 10:09 AM
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matti467 matti467 is offline
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I shared a drill hall on Triumph Road Nottingham with D Company 1 Mercian Volunteers and remember their rebadging parade when they became WFR. Some complained that they had become a 4th Bttn from a 1st Bttn.
We all said 'whatever'! It is easy being badged Royal Signals.
I was also on parade when our WRAC, sometimes 2/3rds of our strength were rebadged Royal Signals.
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Old 23-12-14, 10:21 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi David,

As stated, this is the earliest date that I have for the Gaunt B'Ham mark, as found via official documentation, and not the 1970's as some continue to state, without any providence, creating confusion to yourself and many others in this matter.

Regards

Chris
Chris,
I think in most cases the confusion is self generated by those who take the 1970's to mean all badges, whereas the date of post 1970's is generally accepted amongst most collectors to be when non anodised GAUNT B'HAM metal badges started to emerge! It is dangerous to regard this date at for all badges, as post mid 1950's A/A became the general material of manufacture for issued badges, 15 years later is when the reproduced metal badges started to hit the seen!
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Old 23-12-14, 01:56 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
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Many thanks for all the replays and 1 member who also supplied further valuable information

Last edited by 49lassiepen; 23-12-14 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 23-12-14, 03:12 PM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Originally Posted by 49lassiepen View Post
Many thanks for all the replays and 1 member who also supplied further valuable information
I can recommend 'Regiments and Mergers in the British Army 1907 - 2007' by Goff Lumley. Published by MLRS. ISBN 978 1 - 84791 - 258 - 9.

An A4 sized reference book with a clear guide to the disbandment and merging of Cavalry, infantry regiments, TAVR and Yeomanry units. It covers with clarity and dates the Brigade era before and after, up until 2007.

Kind regards all.

Bess
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Old 23-12-14, 03:29 PM
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grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
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Probably also worth considering in pre-computer days that the stores supply "system" continued to place orders with manufacturers to restock when the quantity on the shelf dropped below a certain number. This would include re-ordering badges long after they were actually obsolete. A glance at the 2005 and updated "current" 2010 editions of JSP 768 Defence Clothing Catalogue indicates a good number of obsolescent and misdescribed or illustrated items together with the appeal in the Foreword 'Please note that JSP 768 may contain certain items that may be obsolescent/obsolete. This is because the user has yet to confirm their continued requirement or they may be items that have not been demanded for many years."

Tim
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Old 23-12-14, 04:09 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 49lassiepen View Post
Perhaps Mike H or Hagwalther[Chris ] could give some help here
A novice question even after 40 years of collecting and a reasonable collection of a/a badges Since the brigade system was in use from 1958 -1968 ? after which the regiments started the ware their regimental badges Why are large number of brigade badges found with Gaunt B'ham as Gaunt only moved to Birmingham in the early 1970,s I would have suspected that there was no need to produce Brigade badges at this time
David
Gents,

Can someone please tell me why there is an assumption that J. R. Gaunt moved from London to Birmingham in the 1970's ? I suspect that it is because maker marks show either "Gaunt London or "Gaunt Birmingham". The J.R. Gaunt factory has always been in Birmingham. The "London" back-mark relates to the location of their registered office. Badges with the back-mark "Firmin London" again don't relate to the place of manufacture but the location of the registered office. In fact Firmin ceased to have a London office in the 1980's/90's but still sometimes use the "London" back-mark. Please see attached a copy of the Gaunt letter head from my files dated 25th Feb. 1937.

Dave.
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Old 23-12-14, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by altcar73 View Post
Gents,

Can someone please tell me why there is an assumption that J. R. Gaunt moved from London to Birmingham in the 1970's ? I suspect that it is because maker marks show either "Gaunt London or "Gaunt Birmingham". The J.R. Gaunt factory has always been in Birmingham. The "London" back-mark relates to the location of their registered office. Badges with the back-mark "Firmin London" again don't relate to the place of manufacture but the location of the registered office. In fact Firmin ceased to have a London office in the 1980's/90's but still sometimes use the "London" back-mark. Please see attached a copy of the Gaunt letter head from my files dated 25th Feb. 1937.

Dave.
Hi Dave,

This is from my book, which covers pages 30-31 and records the history of J.R.Gaunt:

"...During the late 1960s J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited also had other offices in London at 1-8 Bateman Buildings, Soho Square (PO Box 4AD), London, W1 later becoming W1A 4AD. Company notepaper from the time had been amended by reprinting from ‘J. R. GAUNT & SON LIMITED’ to ‘J. R. GAUNT (LONDON) LIMITED’, as discovered on a letter from the company to the Ministry of Defence dated 20th November 1969. By 1st January 1970 new dedicated company notepaper with the London name was available. (7) This gives rise to the idea that the company was, at least in part, known by this name at the time. At some stage the company moved from Warwick Street to the Soho Square address but the actual date of the move is unknown. The head office remained at Warstone Parade Works, Birmingham 18. (8) In June 1973 Mr John R. Gaunt sold his company to the Birmingham Mint Group also known as The Mint, Birmingham, Ltd. for 600,000 and all administration is believed to have been transferred from the London offices to Birmingham..."

The numbers shown in brackets represent the document references. Get hold of a copy of the book and you will see where I obtained my information from.

If you look at the last line you should see why the 1970's date is often used. However, be warned, I use the word "...believed..." as I could not find actual 100% documented proof of the date of the transfer in the 1970's although obviously it occurred.

Going back to the 1966-67 date for the Gaunt B'Ham mark - I never found out why this mark was created only that it was as per my previous post. I was taken to task on the level of my intelligence (so, what's new) for not knowing the reason for the change by an interesting 'chap' who now owns the Gaunt name. When I pushed him to divulge he refused.

Hopefully the two posts that I have written here are of interest in relation to the B'Ham mark and the 1970's date - if anyone needs more info on Gaunt and the other 21 companies who actually made or had an interest in the manufacture of A/A cap badges you know where to find it.

Regards

Chris

Last edited by hagwalther; 23-12-14 at 10:30 PM.
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  #13  
Old 23-12-14, 08:39 PM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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Chris,

Thank you for that information. I should explain that I collect police badges not military badges. That said, the back-marks used by the various manufacturers are invariably the same. My comments were prompted by reading the start of the thread where its said, "as Gaunt only moved to Birmingham in the early 1970,s.....". that's obviously not quite correct, but I can now understand the statement.

You mention the current owner of the "Gaunt" name. I too have, for want of a better term, "crossed swords" with him. The company still exists....... A somewhat strange individual. I'll say no more.

For obvious reasons I don't have a copy of your book. However, from what I've seen its an excellent publication and an obvious labour of love.

Best wishes, Dave.

Last edited by altcar73; 23-12-14 at 08:46 PM.
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