Not really a badge! Artillery related

[jesus_jones]

Hi,
Apologies if this is in the wrong place and/or wrong forum.
If it is, please could you direct me?

I am researching a motorcycle used in a 1944.
The first part is that I can identify it formed part of the Guards armoured division - as the badge, I knew pretty well, is still visible:



The rest, I'm not 100%. Wondering if you knew, or knew a forum that would know...



I'd put money on that being a H. It looks also like the 3rd quadrant is a red square on a dark blue background, which would suggest artillery 3rd battery?

H (on some websites) denotes a battery command post officer vehicle. But It could also mean troop?

The front of the bike shows the same H, but above it, there is also a Y and it looks like a badge shape, with a red top.



Any thoughts?

[Bill A]

Hello jesus jones, welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for posts.

[fairlie63]

Hello jesus jones,

You are correct in that it appears to be an H on an R Battery (third battery) marking.

H is traditionally the Command Post Vehicle of a field branch artillery regiment, in those days either an 8cwt or 15cwt truck, or sometimes a half-track in RHA SP regiments.

Early on the troop sergeant and the DR of an anti-tank troop had motorcycles - one of them might have used the troop letter H instead of MC1 or MC2. H Troop would be in the third bty of an anti-tank regiment when they went to NW Europe but they shouldn't have had motorcycles in a/tk regts by then.

Of course everything is subject to change and extemporisation, it was the British Army after all

Heavy and light AA regiments of the Australian Army used H for battery HQ vehicles but I can't find evidence for British Army use of the same in 1943 onwards.

Keith

[jesus_jones]

Thanks ever so much Keith. Great help. I was up late, googling the 'Y' on the front mud guard and saw "Battery survey officer' vehicle - is this anything you've come across? Maybe attached to H troop. Not sure if troops had their own survey team/person and if they'd use a motorcycle also for surveying.

I am a novice in this field, so learning the ground up.

Since I asked yesterday evening, a chap at my work place has been up most of the night to narrow down the markings - we are both wondering (as I reply now) if you have any thoughts, based on your obvious knowledge on the subject and on what you've typed already??

His notes:
Guards armoured had 5 artillery components
• 153rd (Leicestershire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45
• 55th (Wessex) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 08/06/42-11/06/45
• 21st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-29/05/45
• 75th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45
• 94th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45

153rd, didn't have H-troop, but the 55th (Wessex) did, so he claims.
The remaining RA regiments, were more attachments than actual historical units and thus, he believes, the bike would more likely have been with them.

The 'Y' still puzzles me, however. it's background is triangular shaped at the bottom and is dark. Yet the top, looks to have been red.

Really interesting though!

[54Bty]

Not sure about which Regiment but in a Field Regt it could be the Assistant Command Post Officer (Tac sign Y) of the 3rd Bty Command Post (Tac sign H), using a spare Motor Cycle on the establishment. The normal vehicle being a 15 cwt Truck which can soon be fully loaded with kit and equipment and no room for him.

Just a thought.

The letter Y on the symbol may show that the vehicle belongs in one of the two West Somerset Yeomanry Batteries and the other Battery has a different symbol. The Regiments other two Batteries being from Wiltshire.

Marc

[fairlie63]

Marc is right about the Y being for the ACPO, in fact in the 1938 organization the battery command post itself was Y1 and Y2, H did not come until later.

It might also be worth remembering that the blue square with red square denoting battery did not come into use until early 1941 and took quite a while after that to become general.

Prior to this lots of differing shapes and colours or combinations of same were in use of which no consolidated record survives. It may be that the Y was a previous marking for BCP or ACPO and that the shape behind it denoted the particular battery.

It may well be that the unit sign, i.e., 74, 76, 77 being the likely contenders, was on the fuel tank.

Keith

[Roy]

Hi JJ,

I can't help you with your enquiry but as a motorcyclist I would love to see some photos of the whole bike?

Cheerio,

Roy

[jesus_jones]

Some great info for me to go on.

I can answer a couple of points, but I have more questions!

- I will take pictures of the bike, when it arrives - no problem.
- Typically the only part on this bike that is not original is the fuel tank! So I won't be able to uncover any AoS or other elements from that part. Which is a massive shame.
- The bike was built in 1944. So it was more than likely painted in this year also. There isn't a continual army ownership key card, so it was likely demobbed as surplus after the war. It was brought back to England recently having spent it's life in the Netherlands.

My Questions...if I may!?

Am I right to assume, that because only 2 field regiments made up the Guards armoured, that the markings on the bike thus far tally with regimental artillery markings? I'm looking for a way to narrow down the list:
• 153rd (Leicestershire Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45
• 55th (Wessex) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery 08/06/42-11/06/45
• 21st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-29/05/45
• 75th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45
• 94th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery 01/06/42-11/06/45

Based on Marc and Keith's responses thus far. I have also found:

(http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...egiment.35293/)
Each of the three batteries was identical and organised as follows.

Command
Motorcycle 1
signalling serjeant
Motorcycle 2
orderly
Motorcycle 3
orderly
Motorcycle 4
orderly
Motorcycle 5
command post officers assistant

And that the above was applicable to:
55 Field Regiment Guards Armoured Division

The 55th are 2nd on the list above, who made up the guards armoured.
The other field regiment (153rd also as part of guards armoured) are not listed on that site, as a formation 'being applicable'.

Could this really be a 55th Wessex Field regiment, Royal artillery, 3rd Battery (sub-unit code number to find out) ACPO bike?!



The vendor to me, seemed keen to offer that the letter 'Y' may have been a battery survey tac-sign.
The only bit of information I can find that would partially agree is this: https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/veh...ticalsigns.htm
But it was for Canadian marking.
The Bike did not have a 'CC' based census number - it was purely a 'C' which means it was a British force attached bike. I hope I am right to dismiss the 'Y' theory!

[fairlie63]

Try this link JJ, this shows that Y was the ACPO in a British field regt in 1944. This would be correct for 55 Fd Regt which was the division's towed regt.

http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm
and
http://nigelef.tripod.com/fdregt44.htm

153 Fd Regt would have been the SP regiment for the division but Y still meant the same thing in it.

H may well have been the CPO orderly or CPO Ack as Marc said, using motor cycles, instead of MC2 or MC3.

Battery surveyors did travel in both Y trucks in the 1938 two-battery organization, but not in the 1940/41 three battery organization when one Y truck became H truck.

Canadian practices may have been different, and Barry Bedlam's Canadian Vehicle Markings Volume 2: Royal Canadian Artillery Tactical Signs 1939-1967 has Y down as battery survey. H and Y trucks in the Australian field regiment establishment in 1943 each had surveyors but they were still the CPO and ACPO vehicles respectively.

Nothing else I can add sorry.

Keith

[jesus_jones]

Originally Posted by fairlie63

Try this link JJ, this shows that Y was the ACPO in a British field regt in 1944. This would be correct for 55 Fd Regt which was the division's towed regt.

http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm
and
http://nigelef.tripod.com/fdregt44.htm

153 Fd Regt would have been the SP regiment for the division but Y still meant the same thing in it.

H may well have been the CPO orderly or CPO Ack as Marc said, using motor cycles, instead of MC2 or MC3.

Battery surveyors did travel in both Y trucks in the 1938 two-battery organization, but not in the 1940/41 three battery organization when one Y truck became H truck.

Canadian practices may have been different, and Barry Bedlam's Canadian Vehicle Markings Volume 2: Royal Canadian Artillery Tactical Signs 1939-1967 has Y down as battery survey. H and Y trucks in the Australian field regiment establishment in 1943 each had surveyors but they were still the CPO and ACPO vehicles respectively.

Nothing else I can add sorry.

Keith

You've been more than helpful. I certainly feel far more confident, thank you ever so much.

I read and searched the links you've sent. Still trying to make sense of it all.
I couldn't see vehicle reference numbers for the 2x anti-tank & 1 x light anti-aircraft regiments (that made up the guards armoured).
I suspect with my limited military knowledge, that as these are newer, more mobile units, deployed probably quickly and they didn't have a rigid structure that went as far as the documentation for Self propelled and towed artillery?

Edit: Cancel that. They did, according to: https://web.archive.org/web/20160331...ark/page6.html

That site also confirmed for me, that the H is definitely not a Troop number. So that early avenue is at least closed

On this page: https://web.archive.org/web/20160331...ark/page5.html
The 1942 (3 battery) that H = command post officer AND Y = battery survey (again maybe why the vendor though of Y for survey)

However, as Keith & Marc pointed out, from 1944 (this bike was built and painted then), it appears to have changed (Keith's link: http://nigelef.tripod.com/fdregt44.htm)

It is therefore likely that, as mentioned, it was:
3rd Battery command post (H), Assistant Command Post Officer (Y)

Only problem being, without the tank AoS, it could have been either 153 fd SP or 55 fd towed.

Not sure where to go from here now!

[GriffMJ]

I think the Y marking is key here..... It could be regiment specific? Its certainly not seen in the 153 (LYPAO) FR RA Guards Amd... 131bty (3rd Bty) had an F Troop.... but no G or H troop.

[Rob Miller]

Hi Jesus

I have been watching this thread with interest, M20s being a bit of a favourite of mine and yours is certainly interesting, judging by the extra bolt holes in your mudguards it has had post war number plates fitted at a later date so I'm quite surprised its not in the key cards, but they are sometimes badly filled out however with an engine number given instead of a frame number so its quite possible that its hiding in there under a wrong number, I can have a look if you can give me the frame and engine number.

Cheers
Rob

[jesus_jones]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

I think the Y marking is key here..... It could be regiment specific? Its certainly not seen in the 153 (LYPAO) FR RA Guards Amd... 131bty (3rd Bty) had an F Troop.... but no G or H troop.

Hi Griff, thanks for the email!

The SP and towed only went up to F troops, from what I can see.
Then the Alphabet on the Tac seemed to switch to 'role's rather than troops.
According to this c1942
G = Gun position officer
H = Command post officer
Y = Battery Survey (interestingly this is on the bike too!)

By 1943 here:

H = CPO + ACPO
Y = ACPO

Nevertheless they should have been in a truck and not a motorcycle! But They could have used one of the motorcycles in the establishment, as the ACPO was assigned one + an orderly. So rather than using the MC# They just painted on the Y to denote the difference in the ACPO's bike and an orderly.

That's my current thinking..
I can't see anything other than the 'Y' to mean Yeomanry, that would mean regiment specific. Both Field rgts were Yeomanry though

[jesus_jones]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Hi Jesus

I have been watching this thread with interest, M20s being a bit of a favourite of mine and yours is certainly interesting, judging by the extra bolt holes in your mudguards it has had post war number plates fitted at a later date so I'm quite surprised its not in the key cards, but they are sometimes badly filled out however with an engine number given instead of a frame number so its quite possible that its hiding in there under a wrong number, I can have a look if you can give me the frame and engine number.

Cheers
Rob

Hi Rob,

The details are:
Frame number: WM20 105948
Engine number: WM20 97394
Census Number: C5546648

It only came back to Britain last year, I think it was in the Netherlands, possibly since the end of the war.

[jesus_jones]

When the bike arrives with me, the first order is to see what lies beneath the paint next to the H. That looks like another marking to the right.....