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  #16  
Old 20-05-21, 08:22 PM
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Default Thanks for your information

Cheers guys for the info.
Well outside the sphere of my collecting interests.
Stay safe
Jon
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  #17  
Old 20-05-21, 08:24 PM
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Default Any idea why there would be the 2 makers marks present mate?

Any idea why there would be 2 makers marks present mate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post
Thanks to all, for all images and info.

This Royal Malta Artillery AA cap badge is stamped 'BUTTONS LTD' and over-stamped 'FIRMIN & SONS LONDON'

All the best

William
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  #18  
Old 20-05-21, 08:37 PM
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No idea. ����
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  #19  
Old 20-05-21, 09:58 PM
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What I find questionable too is that Firmin usually stamped this particular badge with "Firmin London" and not "Firmin & Sons London"??? Or am I wrong?

Guess some questions will remain unanswered!

Vincent
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  #20  
Old 21-05-21, 12:19 AM
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The Plot Thickens!........ I was wondering a couple of days ago that a possibility exists that if a previous badge to the “Hybrid” one shown had had a defect in the material or a slight defect in the die, the two tops of the cross might have broken off, stuck to the die and in effect, formed part of the die for a couple of
stampings, then fallen away. This then might account for the non voided chain,
(Uneven pressure in the die) and given the appearance of the shear marks mentioned in one of the posts earlier. Personally, I would not display it in a collection but rather just keep it as a piece to ponder over
OK, the foregoing was the ramblings of an old Fart, I’ll go back to my corner Sir.
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  #21  
Old 21-05-21, 11:43 AM
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One of mine has a faint small FIRMIN LONDON going one way and a heavy impression of BUTTONS LTD over the top going the other.

Marc
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I am still looking for the Army Formation cloth sleeve badges and a few others from the Sultanate of Oman.
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  #22  
Old 21-05-21, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOMalta View Post
What I find questionable too is that Firmin usually stamped this particular badge with "Firmin London" and not "Firmin & Sons London"??? Or am I wrong?

Guess some questions will remain unanswered!

Vincent
As far has been ascertained, that mark has never been used.
Firmin & Sons is from the late 80s early 90s.

The Firmin London goes way back 60s to 70s. Which fits with the date of the badge. I dont know what year Malta became independent and removed the crown from the badge.
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  #23  
Old 21-05-21, 04:56 PM
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I believe it was 1971?
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  #24  
Old 21-05-21, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
As far has been ascertained, that mark has never been used.
Firmin & Sons is from the late 80s early 90s.

The Firmin London goes way back 60s to 70s. Which fits with the date of the badge. I dont know what year Malta became independent and removed the crown from the badge.
Independence was on the 21st September 1964, however the Royal Malta Artillery ceased to be part of the British Regular Army on the 1st October 1970.

So Firmin London fits perfectly within these dates. Can someone date the Buttons Ltd. stamp?

Vincent
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  #25  
Old 22-05-21, 10:50 AM
Ex Supt Clk RAOC Ex Supt Clk RAOC is offline
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Vincent

To answer your question on dating the Buttons Ltd makers mark, i had a look in my copy of Anodised Aluminium The 'No Bull' cap badges of the British Army written by Chris Marsh (Hagwalter) of this forum.

In the Chapter on the various manufacturer's of Anodised Aluminium badges he states that Buttons Ltd traded from Portland Street in Birmingham from 1907 to 1970 when they were taken over by Francis Sumner Engineering Company who were a part of the Francis Sumner Group of Companies. It is not know if they continued to make cap badges after this date (1970).

In Chapter 8 which covers the various marks used by the manufacturer's he shows two known marks for Buttons Ltd. The one we have seen stamped on the slider (without over stamping) he says if from the brigade era of cap badges but the exact useage dates are unknown. Buttons also used another mark over two lines with Buttons on the top line and Ltd below. This much rarer mark is only found on one badge - that of the Coldstream Guards and again the date of use is unknown.

Information within Chris's book indicates that at the time his book was written only 8 badges were known to exist bearing the Buttons makers mark. These are:
15/19 H
Coldm Gds
East Anglian Bde
Green Jackets Bde
KOSB
R ANGLIAN
358 (Suffolk Yeomanry) Med Regt RA (TA)
Royal Malta Artillery (Large)

So in short (Thanks to Chris Marsh) that is probably the best answer to your question at this time

Regards
Steve
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  #26  
Old 22-05-21, 05:10 PM
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If you use the Brigade badges as a guide .
GJ Brigade ended in 1966
East Anglian similar date

I'd think you are looking at a mid 60s production date.
The overstamp could be from them not being dispatched straight and Firmins buying their stock after they ceased producing badges.
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  #27  
Old 23-05-21, 12:19 AM
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Thank You Steve and Thank You Mike.

The information provided is very much appreciated. I believe we're getting somewhere here!

So to recap, am I right to presume that Buttons had the first contract (probably mid-1950s) before being taken over by Francis Sumner and later bought by Firmin (sometime in the late 1960s) at which time over-stamping was done prior to Firmin having the new stock stamped Firmin London?

Vincent
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  #28  
Old 23-05-21, 09:14 AM
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That's my personal opinion Vincent

I think most seasoned collectors will have the odd item in their collections that they cannot explain or dont know exactly what it is.
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  #29  
Old 07-06-21, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Supt Clk RAOC View Post
Vincent

To answer your question on dating the Buttons Ltd makers mark, i had a look in my copy of Anodised Aluminium The 'No Bull' cap badges of the British Army written by Chris Marsh (Hagwalter) of this forum.

In the Chapter on the various manufacturer's of Anodised Aluminium badges he states that Buttons Ltd traded from Portland Street in Birmingham from 1907 to 1970 when they were taken over by Francis Sumner Engineering Company who were a part of the Francis Sumner Group of Companies. It is not know if they continued to make cap badges after this date (1970).

In Chapter 8 which covers the various marks used by the manufacturer's he shows two known marks for Buttons Ltd. The one we have seen stamped on the slider (without over stamping) he says if from the brigade era of cap badges but the exact useage dates are unknown. Buttons also used another mark over two lines with Buttons on the top line and Ltd below. This much rarer mark is only found on one badge - that of the Coldstream Guards and again the date of use is unknown.

Information within Chris's book indicates that at the time his book was written only 8 badges were known to exist bearing the Buttons makers mark. These are:
15/19 H
Coldm Gds
East Anglian Bde
Green Jackets Bde
KOSB
R ANGLIAN
358 (Suffolk Yeomanry) Med Regt RA (TA)
Royal Malta Artillery (Large)

So in short (Thanks to Chris Marsh) that is probably the best answer to your question at this time

Regards
Steve
Thanks Steve for posting this.
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  #30  
Old 24-06-21, 02:26 AM
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Default Armed Forces of Malta

I was lucky enough to pick this up on ebay recently.

Firmin London marking but surprised to see slider if it is an AFM officer's badge.

Keith
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