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  #1  
Old 16-12-13, 02:25 PM
PeterA PeterA is offline
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Default Sharpshooter Imperial Yeomanry

Having picked up a further pair of the Sharpshooter pre WWI collars with the white metal 'peened' on scroll on ebay recently, I paid particular attention to the same seller posting a further seven Sharpshooters badges in succesion that I would not normally have given a second glance. The usual fakes.

These badges had a crisp finish and a nice all over patina including the reverse that said original to me and I purchased them all.

I anticipated one badge to be the same as a Boer War era slouch hat badge I had purchased from Boselys a few years back...expensive, damaged and no rosette, but no, on arrival it was smaller at 1-5/16" height as opposed to the 1-1/2" ..

So is this new addition to my Sharpshooter collection a hitherto unknown collar? Being Sharpshooter specific I do not own the big reference books.

PeterA

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  #2  
Old 16-12-13, 02:31 PM
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The one on the right appears cast to me as you can see pitting from the casting process. As such, and being smaller which will also occur from a repro mould, I suspect a copy of an original.
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  #3  
Old 16-12-13, 03:39 PM
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Alan's comment is interesting: my initial thought was that the badge on the right had been excavated - though I would then expect similar surface degradation on the letters. I know very little of these particular badges, but I have seen a fair few that have been dug up and then cleaned.

Graham
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  #4  
Old 16-12-13, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
The one on the right appears cast to me as you can see pitting from the casting process. As such, and being smaller which will also occur from a repro mould, I suspect a copy of an original.
That is too much percentage height difference to be shrinkage in my view, plus the crown is of a different detail form particularly at the top.

The badge does seem to have been cleaned at some stage but note the colour, patina and the style of the lugs...identical.

I like the sliver of corrosion on the backing plate.

PeterA

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  #5  
Old 16-12-13, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
The one on the right appears cast to me as you can see pitting from the casting process. As such, and being smaller which will also occur from a repro mould, I suspect a copy of an original.
I agree, and if this dealer is whom I suspect, Southern based and trades on ebay under the name of a coloured Ursidine, 'caveat emptor' definitely comes to mind IMO.

Rob
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  #6  
Old 16-12-13, 07:51 PM
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hi not sure what a coloured ursidine is ?
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Old 16-12-13, 08:03 PM
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Blue Nun?
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Old 16-12-13, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
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I agree, and if this dealer is whom I suspect, Southern based and trades on ebay under the name of a coloured Ursidine, 'caveat emptor' definitely comes to mind IMO.

Rob
'Rare Bear', point taken.

This may well be a fake but it most cetainly is not a casting made from the 'Bosleys' slouch hat badge.

Time to get the vernier out

Typical shrinkage allowance for cast brass is 1.4%

The badge in doubt is 14.5% smaller on the principal height and width dimensions to the 'Bosleys' badge.

Possibly not by coincidence that is precisly the percentage variation on the SS insignias in the image below which pretty much have identical dimensions of the respective 'S' forms of the two crowned badges.

PeterA

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Old 16-12-13, 08:31 PM
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"Coloured Ursidine" = rare bear?

I understand the "bear" part (Ursidae) but where does coloured come into it?
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  #10  
Old 16-12-13, 08:51 PM
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Brown are common bears where as grey ones are rather rare I understand.
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  #11  
Old 16-12-13, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
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Brown are common bears where as grey ones are rather rare I understand.
Maybe "Ursidae without colour, not well done"
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  #12  
Old 17-12-13, 01:05 AM
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hi all
this is all to confusing for me. coloured bears and blue nuns.
i dont like the badge on the right at all. does look cast or at best excavated
bc
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  #13  
Old 17-12-13, 09:12 AM
PeterA PeterA is offline
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I am more than happy to accept this badge is a fake and 'not liked'.

I am not a military badge collector, just a 'Sharpshooter' with a strong interest in my old regiment.

Yes this badge is a casting with the SS fettled and polished. The split line of the mould can be seen here.



Does this lug tell the fake spotters anything. Is it modern or period etc?



My question remains, if it is a fake/copy, what is it a fake/copy of?

At 14% smaller than the slouch hat badge, was there ever a collar version of the 'Crowned SS'? The Sharpshooter museum does not appear to have one.

It may be a naive question but if it is a fake, with all the time, tooling and expense required, shouldn't there be a number of these in circulation?

PeterA
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  #14  
Old 17-12-13, 10:31 AM
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hi peter
It may be a naive attempt to make a Sharpshooter badge?
ie not a good copy?
bc
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  #15  
Old 17-12-13, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
I am more than happy to accept this badge is a fake and 'not liked'.


My question remains, if it is a fake/copy, what is it a fake/copy of?

At 14% smaller than the slouch hat badge, was there ever a collar version of the 'Crowned SS'? The Sharpshooter museum does not appear to have one.

It may be a naive question but if it is a fake, with all the time, tooling and expense required, shouldn't there be a number of these in circulation?

PeterA
Hi Peter,

At first glance the badge looks theatre made but the loops tell another story. Also the back shows that the attempted sand-cast effect does not have the same manufacturing signs as other Yeomanry badges from that period. The Sharpshooter collars from 1901-1914 were the crossed rifles with crown and scroll, usually touted as a headdress badge (but not actually worn as a headress badge). The photos from post #8 are very similar to a) Slouch Hat badge 18th Bn I.Y. and b) the smaller shoulder title 1903-1908.

It is possible that the shoulder title worn before 1903 was the same badge design as the one that is in doubt. Those loops are not from that period however. So my best guess is that the badge is an attempt to copy either an unknown S/T pre 1903 or the larger 21st Bn I.Y Slouch Hat Badge.

Best,

Garry
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