16th Welsh (Cardiff City) Service Battn Welsh Regt

[Stacy]

Thank you so much for your help.

Have a good day.

Stacy

[TWGB]

Gentlemen,

One for the welsh experts; your comments appreciated, please.

I have just acquired this badge, despite the warning given in the very first post in this thread!

As you can see, it has a slider, not loops, and there is no sign of loops ever having been fitted, nor of the slider being a later addition. It has a coating, front and rear, that may obscure some evidence? Even with the coating, though, the rear is pretty well defined compared with most of the badges I have seen (although not all).

An oddity, for sure; opinions, even suggestions, please.

Thanks,

Tim

[JerryBB]

as you say, a slider should kill it and as you also say, the design is a closer match to an original than the common fakes you see, perhaps cast from an original or a restrike.

weird the thick coating on it, an attempt to look like an OSD?

I look forward to seeing a an answer on this one.

[Luke H]

Not an expert, Welsh or otherwise.

But an interesting badge Tim. What may I ask are the dimensions and weight?

Certainly not a product of either known fake dies. Indeed it appears to match the original die.

The thickness of and texture along the edges does raise eyebrows for me and the possibility of a cast copy. However I’m yet to see that type of copy of this particular badge. The dimensions and weight of cast copies will differ from the original, as you know.

Like you say the rear definition esp. the Cardiff scroll is better than seen on most originals. Albeit some are sharper than others like this one.

The finish has that glossy modern look with the exposed parts looking more chipped paint than original rubbed bronzing. But, that’s not to say it mightn’t have been re-finished at some point later in time.

I’m sure you will not get the seal of approval from many on here.

However, personally I can see why you took a risk and would likely have done the same if inexpensive.

[TWGB]

Thanks, Gentlemen.

Definitely not a cast badge, but die struck. Both the badge and slider are very stiff, too; generally a positive sign. Any thickness comes from a slight "return edge" around most of the badge, not the badge itself.

The dimensions are 33.5mm wide and 41.5mm high, at the widest / highest point. I will weigh the badge when I'm back home mid-week...

I would suggest not a restrike, too. At the risk of embarrassing myself, I will try and recall some of the materials science I did some 45 years ago. It might suggest that the brass example you show, Luke, is an early strike, and in a relatively soft metal. At that stage both halves of the die leave a good impression on the metal, front and rear. Bear in mind, a significant load is required to achieve this finish. As subsequent badges are struck, particularly in harder metals (Bronze is almost twice as hard as Brass) one can imagine some deterioration to the rear die, which has to have a finer relief to compensate for the thickness of the metal being struck. Hence the lack of rear detail on many of the badges. Speculation, only, of course, but on this basis any later restrikes would have the lack of detail to the rear, too, and this badge would be a relatively early strike in the run!

I would agree, too, that the coating looks like paint rather than anything else, but the metal exposed is more bronzy that brassy.

Over the coming days I will try some photo-wizardry to confirm with more certainty that this badge came from the same die as other 16th collars. I am certain, as you point out, that it is significantly different to the known fake badges.

I look forward to further comments or suggestions...

Tim

[41st]

Tim,
That is certainly the right pattern, but what concerns me, shank aside, is the apparent thickness of the metal. Of all the badges i have owned and handled, which runs to about 10 or so, they have all been relatively thin pressings. I have also never seen a photo of one being worn in a cap. Nevertheless a keeper until something more solid comes up on it.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[BROOKIES]

Tim.

Have weight my set and collars are 7.32 & 7.34 grams and cap badge is 7.49 grams.

This maybe of help to you.

Ta

Jonathan

[TWGB]

Kevin,

Thanks for your view; it sums up why I bought the badge. I do think the pictures are slightly deceptive, though, in that the badge is really quite thin. I attach a side view, which is quite difficult to interpret, but the coppery-look line is the thickness, and the darker part is the curve of the badge. It is probably ~1/4 the thickness of the slider, which is 1.35mm thick (With the relief of the badge, my micrometer is far too crude to get an actual measurement).

Thanks, too, Jonathan.

With the slider, this badge weighs 8.90 grammes, which is quite heavy but a lot of that must be the slider. The badge is coated, too, which must add a little bit, too. I have a brass badge on loops that is 7.53g, so very similar to yours.

It is well known that there is no photographic evidence to support any supposition that this is a cap badge; rather the opposite, in fact. The fact that this one has a slider, and no sign of it ever having had loops, makes it an anomaly, and therefore interesting, but nothing more than that. It could well be that the coating is covering something up, but for now I'll keep it as it is, rather than strip it back to investigate further...

Best regards,

Tim