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  #1  
Old 30-12-17, 09:40 PM
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Default Help Dating Middlesex Militia Button?

Hello Chaps,

With just a couple of days left to this year, I was fortunate enough to have this little beauty come in - a Royal West Middlesex Militia button by Charles Jennings London.

Reference 154 in Ripley.

I believe the 'Royal' dates it to post 1804 with an end date of 1853 ish but was wondering if you bright sparks could squeeze that date down a little?

Cheerio and Happy New Year,

Roy
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  #2  
Old 31-12-17, 10:19 AM
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Hello Roy

A very nice button and with that 'Charles Jennens' backmark it is likely to date before 1832 when the company started to use 'Jennens & Co' as a backmark.

The open backed style of button generally went out of fashion (so to speak!) in the period 1820-1830 so I would say your specific button could reasonably be dated to between 1804 and 1825 give or take a few years.
This narrows it down a little for you.

Happy New Year
Roger
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  #3  
Old 31-12-17, 12:23 PM
Buttonman Buttonman is offline
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From the London Directories 1800-1899.

Jennens, Charles 316 Oxford Street
1807-1810
Also found as
Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
or Jennens & Co. 1808

Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1811-1816

Jennens, C. & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1817-1821

Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1822-1825

Jennens, Joseph & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1826-1828

Hope this narrows it down a bit for you. It would seem to indicate the early date.

Regards,

David.
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  #4  
Old 31-12-17, 03:12 PM
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I don't want to pour cold water but I believe this button is of later manufacture. The presence of PoW plumes hark to c 1860. Furthermore the Crown is Victorian, not Georgian. However, be glad to be proven wrong

GTB
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  #5  
Old 31-12-17, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB View Post
I don't want to pour cold water but I believe this button is of later manufacture. The presence of PoW plumes hark to c 1860. Furthermore the Crown is Victorian, not Georgian. However, be glad to be proven wrong

GTB
Hello GTB

There is no doubt that Charles Jennens used the PoW plumes well before 1860, even though there are references in certain books to Jennens using the PoW plumes from 1860 on but these are wrong. There is plenty of evidence to show that Charles Jennens (as opposed to Jennens & Co) used the PoW plumes as part of their backmark in the 1830s and earlier.

There was a very good article in "Button Lines" proving this point some years ago with plenty of hard evidence (ie references to buttons and backmarks) to support this.

As for the crown, I for one sometimes find it hard to tell the difference!

Roger
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  #6  
Old 31-12-17, 04:11 PM
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Thank you very much gentlemen,

For all your views and opinions. I always learn so much from such discussions. Who knows, one day such details will start to stick in my colander of a brain.

Out of interest, this is number 77 in my modest militia button collection. It's a slow haul but perhaps 2018 will be the year I hit a century - I can only hope.

Much thanks indeed.

Cheerio,

Roy
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  #7  
Old 31-12-17, 04:24 PM
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Hi Roger

Thanks for the info. I was thinking of the 1857 Militia enactment but possibly the button could now date to the early years of Victoria's reign. I think the clincher would be the nomenclature of the regiment.

GTB
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  #8  
Old 31-12-17, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttonman View Post
From the London Directories 1800-1899.

Jennens, Charles 316 Oxford Street
1807-1810
Also found as
Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
or Jennens & Co. 1808

Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1811-1816

Jennens, C. & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1817-1821

Jennens, Charles & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1822-1825

Jennens, Joseph & Co. 316 Oxford Street
1826-1828

Hope this narrows it down a bit for you. It would seem to indicate the early date.

Regards,

David.

Hi David,

Thank you for this. I'm likely reading far too much into the details here but taken with pinch of salt (i.e. caution) it is interesting to note the one reference to 'C' (instead of Charles) which dates to 1817-1821. Assuming of course that this is gospel (which it rarely is) then buttons with just the letter 'C' can only date to these specific four years (give or take).

Of course I'm probably being to pedantic but it's interesting to ponder.

Two examples shown below to demonstrate the difference between these two types of backmark.

Cheerio,

Roy
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  #9  
Old 01-01-18, 12:40 PM
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Hello Roy

You may well have a point regarding the use of 'C Jennens' and 'Charles Jennens' as regards the dates of use but I think it would be difficult to establish as fact, certainly so far as their use as a backmark is concerned.

Personally I think the use of 'C' and 'Charles' is interchangeable depending, probably, on the size of the button and the die-maker who may not have been given detailed instructions as to the form the name should take.

It's worth mentioning that the details of names and addresses that appear in directories and so on do not always relate to the backmark on buttons. For instance, there are several addresses given for Jennens between 1807 and 1855 but I have never seen any of these on a button, just the name in one form or another and 'London' (does anyone have any early buttons giving the Jennens name and a street address?).

The London Directories also refer to businesses under the names of 'Thomas Jennens', 'Joseph Jennens', 'T & J W Jennens' but I have only ever seen 'C Jennens', 'Charles Jennens' or 'Jennens & Co' used as backmarks on buttons in this period.

Good luck getting your 100 up. It had better be a superlative button!

Roger
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  #10  
Old 01-01-18, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cribyn View Post
...
Personally I think the use of 'C' and 'Charles' is interchangeable depending, probably, on the size of the button and the die-maker who may not have been given detailed instructions as to the form the name should take.
...
Roger
These are backmarks of buttons made by Jennens for Gran Colombia (1821-1832). They confirm Roger's opinion.
<plumes> are always on top.

C. Jennens & Co London <plumes>
C. Jennens London <plumes> 1)
Charles <plumes> Jennens, London
Jennens & Co London <plumes>

1) also on the c.1819 button of the Lanceros 1s, Regimento Macirone
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  #11  
Old 01-01-18, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cribyn View Post
Hello Roy

You may well have a point regarding the use of 'C Jennens' and 'Charles Jennens' as regards the dates of use but I think it would be difficult to establish as fact, certainly so far as their use as a backmark is concerned.

Personally I think the use of 'C' and 'Charles' is interchangeable depending, probably, on the size of the button and the die-maker who may not have been given detailed instructions as to the form the name should take.

It's worth mentioning that the details of names and addresses that appear in directories and so on do not always relate to the backmark on buttons. For instance, there are several addresses given for Jennens between 1807 and 1855 but I have never seen any of these on a button, just the name in one form or another and 'London' (does anyone have any early buttons giving the Jennens name and a street address?).

The London Directories also refer to businesses under the names of 'Thomas Jennens', 'Joseph Jennens', 'T & J W Jennens' but I have only ever seen 'C Jennens', 'Charles Jennens' or 'Jennens & Co' used as backmarks on buttons in this period.

Good luck getting your 100 up. It had better be a superlative button!

Roger
Hi Roger,

Some very good points there. And as I suspected my thoughts on this were a little too simplistic. Clearly one has to collate 'all' the available details and information and form an opinion around that.

Well done Roger, another clear and detailed explanation of a complicated topic.

Cheerio,

Roy
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  #12  
Old 07-10-19, 02:59 AM
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Default C Jennen London buttons on boards

Just received a tin with to Officer’s shoulder boards in then and Georgian buttons to the 66th....they are marked CJennen London (plumes) ..if I can figure out how to post photos here I’ll post them if anyone is interested...I estimate them to be 1820-30 or so...
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  #13  
Old 07-10-19, 03:10 AM
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I was able to post some photos on my member page under albums
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  #14  
Old 09-10-19, 07:13 PM
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I'll have them if they are for sale.
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