Opinions needed - 10th Halifax Siege Badge

[Rob Dekker]

Opinions needed on authenticity and value if you could please. Sorry for the poor quality pics...that's what I received.

[manchesters]

Rob,

It appears to be an original pickled brass type 'C' CFA badge with applied central 10th Btty roundel.

It has two long & correctly shaped tangs on the back, again as I would expect.

The photos are blurred but I think its a good one.

regards

[Bill A]

Hello Rob, A couple of questions. There is no evidence of a third tang on the back? And, the 10 th Seige disc, is there evidence of solder or traces of glue/epoxy around the disc?
The badge is listed as being found in type C in Charlton's. (His father told me so.) It has tangs, which are not found on the Drac's badges. The condition suggests age, BUT that is so easily faked that it should not be considered in the final determination.
On the whole, I aggree with Simon, a good example.
Values are a completely different issue. Most of the hard core CEF collectors are on one of the various Fora/FB pages. Perhaps one of them will chip in.

[Rob Dekker]

Thanks much. I haven't seen the badge in person...just these sketchy images. These kind of badges scare me to death. An original badge with a fake appliqué...etc, etc?

[Rob Dekker]

How is the disc secured on the original badges?

[Bill A]

I believe they were sweated on. Glues that worked on metals were not available, so traces of the same or of epoxy are signs that the badge should be avoided.

[whizzbang]

Hi Rob,

I'll post pics of my 10th badge when I get home from work today. Can't remember if it has two or three tangs (or lugs even). The tangs themselves look correct to me but I would say three is more common (two on the back of the lower scroll, one coming down from the crown).

In terms of value - these days prices are down for the most part but I would say $300-$400 on a good day.

Cheers, Ian.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by whizzbang

Hi Rob,

I'll post pics of my 10th badge when I get home from work today. Can't remember if it has two or three tangs (or lugs even). The tangs themselves look correct to me but I would say three is more common (two on the back of the lower scroll, one coming down from the crown).

In terms of value - these days prices are down for the most part but I would say $300-$400 on a good day.

Cheers, Ian.

Ian,

My research tends to disagree with what you have said about tangs.

The Type 'A' badge had 2 tangs at either end of the bottom scroll making the badge top heavy, so a 3rd tang was fitted at the top and so it sat perfectly on the cap.

When type 'B' and 'C' came out, the maple leaf wreath made it possible for the 2 lower tangs to be moved higher and wider, ie. to the mid line of the badge making it un-necessary for a top tang as it sat perfectly well on the cap with just 2 tangs.

Trhere will be as always exceptions to the rule and I would welcome any photos of examples of Type 'B' and 'C' that have 3 tangs.

regards.

[whizzbang]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Ian,

My research tends to disagree with what you have said about tangs.

The Type 'A' badge had 2 tangs at either end of the bottom scroll making the badge top heavy, so a 3rd tang was fitted at the top and so it sat perfectly on the cap.

When type 'B' and 'C' came out, the maple leaf wreath made it possible for the 2 lower tangs to be moved higher and wider, ie. to the mid line of the badge making it un-necessary for a top tang as it sat perfectly well on the cap with just 2 tangs.

Trhere will be as always exceptions to the rule and I would welcome any photos of examples of Type 'B' and 'C' that have 3 tangs.

regards.

Hi Simon,

Nothing that straight forward or logical about CEF badges, I'm afraid. Here is my Style B 10th Halifax with three tangs as I described previously. In the case of artillery badges having only two fixings, I have mainly seen centrally placed lugs, not tangs. I've also got Style A badges with two lugs placed at the bottom, on the extreme ends of the scroll. I've given up on "rules" about CEF badge construction attributes - small units that barely scraped together a full complement of men and ended up being absorbed into reserve battalions can have three or four badge patterns (the CEF 122nd infantry is a good example of that)!

Cheers, Ian.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by whizzbang

Hi Simon,

Nothing that straight forward or logical about CEF badges, I'm afraid. Here is my Style B 10th Halifax with three tangs as I described previously. In the case of artillery badges having only two fixings, I have mainly seen centrally placed lugs, not tangs. I've also got Style A badges with two lugs placed at the bottom, on the extreme ends of the scroll. I would caution about generalizing on any CEF badge construction attributes!

Cheers, Ian.

Ian,
How right you are, nothing straight forward at all, thanks for the photo. We needs lots of these to try and build up a picture.

It would be great for other similar excellent photos

Regards

[Rob Dekker]

Picked up the badge today...here are a couple of quick pics.

[manchesters]

Rob,

On seeing your photos I am now of the opinion that it is NOT a genuine badge for the following reasons.

1. Wrong colour of brass.
2. Poor detail.
3. The red stuff on the central plaque which I have seen on other fakes.
4. The 'artificial' chemical aging making it almost look like its been in the ground, with excess verdigris, seen on other similar copies.

I think what we are seeing is the latest batch of fakes, well cast copies but in the wrong metal, BUT with the addition of tangs.

Whizzbang, I also have to say that I believe yours to be a clever fake as well of a similar type. I have had a fake 10th from exactly the same mould with the flaw marks in exactly the same places as yours, ie. The inner circle of the central disc under the '10' of the 10th and the 'IEG' of Siege. Notice also the verdigris on the rear of a badge that is from the front a perfectly clean badge and also do I see some red stuff stuck to the central disc?

Of course this is a very emotive and much discussed subject and I am a but a novice but I have been around badges long enough to spot the signs.

sorry,

regards

[whizzbang]

Hi Simon,

Not a chance, emotive subject or not. I've learned the hard way about CEF badge fakes over many years of collecting and I won't keep anything doubtful in my collection. Plus, I know where this one came from!

I've seen the red tinge on the front surface (actually not present on my 10th) on other pickled badges and it is impossible to remove (without sanding or some other excessive measure) - it is the result of de-zincification over the years leaving behind copper.

The verdigris is real, actual verdigris - it happens!

Furthermore, I have yet to see a well-faked green pickled finish. Most attempts, even half-decent attempts like on the Dracs fakes, just don't look right. After years of looking at these things in hand you can tell.

Rob - can't see anything wrong with yours either.

Cheers, Ian.

[manchesters]

Ian,
None of us are likely to agree on this subject, it's a shocking example of how the fakers have messed up badge collecting.

So, leaving yours aside, what do you think of Robs badge?

Regards

[Rob Dekker]

Hold on...let me take better pics tomorrow with better lighting at different angles and post them.