REME Ano KC

[bluebell]

Hi

I wondered if anyone has an anodised KC version of the 2nd type (1952)REME cap badge. Whilst Taylor's 'Collecting Anodised Cap Badges' suggests one was produced, I have never seen one and there is no example in the REME museum at Arborfield.

Ian

[Phil2M]

I would be truly amazed if there is one!!

Regards

Phil

[jeep]

When I passed out from the Apprentice School at Arborfield in December 1964, I was issued with a bi-metal King's crown REME badge. Using up old stock or what! I've never seen or heard of an AA version.

[bluebell]

John

Thanks, it does seem unlikely that they were produced although ano buttons with KC were, I have some of those. By the way, I think I'm the jeep, 74C.

Ian

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I have not seen the REME badge with Tudor Crown officially authorised for issue in any official documentation.

Regards

Chris

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by bluebell

Hi

I wondered if anyone has an anodised KC version of the 2nd type (1952)REME cap badge. Whilst Taylor's 'Collecting Anodised Cap Badges' suggests one was produced, I have never seen one and there is no example in the REME museum at Arborfield.

Ian

I do not have an example of this badge.

A wise person on this forum, (forum name "KLR") once described badge books such as Gaylor, Kipling & King, etc. as something like books (or albums) of badge collections.

So long as these books have no primary references one must regard them with some suspicion as far as being real or accurate is concerned. Thus I agree with him.

I do not dismiss these books, they are our first generation of references, some are valuable and things will get better.

Mr. Taylor's book has no primary references, most sealing dates seem to to be taken from Kipling and King (in that they seem identical where quoted) but do not cite Kipling & King nor indeed anyone else, we are left to believe that what the author says is accurate without a reference.

I personally do not believe what this book says. Let me make this explicitly clear, because this book cites no references I treat this book as one mans opinion (just as I do Gaylor, Kipling & king etc.) I concede publically that he probably knows more that I about anodized badges and thus his opinion is in my opinion more valuable than mine.

Evidence from forum members such as "Hagwalther" will shortly make available just what anodized badges were issued by the MOD to regiments, and it will be backed up by official records.

Where not backed up by primary records we shall have to conclude that units made unofficial badges at their own expense or dealers and/or makers made badges for commercial sale that were never worn by the units they purport to portray.

The comments in this post are my own personal opinions and do not say nor are they meant to imply that Mr. Taylor deliberately misleads readers in his book "Collecting Anodised Cap Badges'.

John.

[hagwalther]

Hi John,

I have to agree with all you say here. The main reason I started my book was due to lack of verifiable information on A/A badges. I found this to be utterly frustrating and an area worthy of research.

With regard to identifying A/A badges.

I have to make clear that the work that I have been doing only identifies the badges down to 'officially authorised for issue' at War Office or Ministry of Defence level. Within this though the great majority certainly were bulk manufactured although evidence as to if they were ever actually issued and worn is a different thing altogether.

Of these badges both authorised and made I have identified 303 different pieces. These include 8 overseas badges of units that were administered by the British Army as far away as the Far East. Most of the official documentation supporting their inclusion in this total comes from multiple sources and all has to be considered as binding. It should be noted here that just because a badge was officially authorised it does not follow that it was made. I consider though that all 303 that I have identified here were both official authorised for issue and batch produced. This total would increase quite substantially if all badges that were authorised were actually made but I could find no evidence of their manufacture. They are though all noted.

On top of these are the CCF and ACF badges. These a a real pain as there is little and basically no official authorisation in regard to these badges. They went through a very basic though official procurement process but certainly no patterns sealed, CCN, COSA or JSP documentation. These badges have been included from advanced collections. Many badges thought to be A/A were in fact found to be of a different metal type. Regardless of the very weak background behind them I have include 28 of them into into the total of badges worth acquiring. These badges are not to be confused with the University OTC items.

Following from these are the Royal Marine devices. Some items here are 'full' badges while other items made up a 'mix and match' to produce a 'badge'. There are 5 Royal Marine pieces all backed up with official documentation. Although not British Army as they are administered by the Royal Navy I have included them as per other publications.

This gives a total of 336 items.

Following closely on the back of these 336 are a further 23 'possibles'. These have a structure that seems genuine and matches other badges made by the same manufacturer including genuine maker markings. However, I could not find any official documentation on them so they sit in a grey are where they are not included but noted.

Outside of these badges are the following groups:

Unofficial Commissions, Commemorative and Collector’s Pieces.
Subdued badges.
Badges which are the result of errors in the manufacturing process.
Unfinished badges
Unofficially modified badges.

Although commented on with examples both photographic and written these badges are not included as none were authorised for issue at War Office or Ministry of Defence level. They may have been authorised at Regimental level but I found no evidence of this either.

If I was to include badges from these groups then the flood gates to unofficial commissions as a whole would be flung wide open. I was never prepared to do this and as such I have always erred on the side of caution much to the annoyment of some members.

I believe that the work I have done will stand scrutiny by my peers here and I hope to get the book printed in the near future.

On a separate matter is that I need to borrow 18 badges to complete the photographic record of all the known 336 A/A badges that were both authorised for issue and actual made. I hope to receive a few of these after consideration by a member this weekend. The issue is that I really want to personally photograph them to keep the standard of the images the same throughout the chapter. I also want to measure and weigh them using the same digital calipers and scales to keep a level of consistency. I will approach a few people who I know own examples of these badges next week but I do understand the reluctance of sending such badges all the way to New Zealand and back. However, if needed I will go to the expense of using personal courier services like Federal Express on both outward and return trips.

Of possible interest these are the badges that I need to borrow:

INFANTRY
AAD08 – The Dorset Regiment [Scroll ‘DORSETSHIRE’]
AAD36 – The Lancashire Fusiliers
AAD40 – The Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire) [Tudor]
AAD57 – Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) [Tudor]
AAD73 – The Royal Norfolk Regiment
AAD82 – The Royal Warwickshire Regiment
AAD86 – The Somerset Light Infantry (Prince Albert’s)
AAD88 – The South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Volunteers) [Small]
AAD89 – South Staffordshire Regiment [Tudor]

GURKHAS
AAE11 – Queen’s Gurkha Signals [One Part Only]

CORPS
AAF16 – Royal Army Chaplains' Department (Jewish)
AAF24 – Royal Army Service Corps [Tudor]

TERRITORIAL ARMY
AAI10 – 302nd (Pembroke Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA) [Large]
AAI12 – 304th (The Essex Yeomanry RHA) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA) [Tudor]
AAI13 – 304th (The Essex Yeomanry RHA) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery (TA) [Large – St.Edward]
AAI18 – 372nd (The Flintshire & Denbighshire Yeomanry) Light Regiment Royal Artillery, (TA)

CCF
AAP03 – Clifton College CCF, Bristol
AAP14 – Millfield School CCF, Somerset

Of the very rare badges I have to say that I may be able to obtain an obverse image of a real Jewish Chaplains but am not optimistic of receiving a genuine (i.e. non official commission) Warwickshire Regt or a proper A/A Gurkha Signals one-piece item. Small South Lancs, South Stafford [Tudor] and Lancashire Fusiliers will also probably be a problem. The rest though are reasonably available.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards

Chris

[jeep]

I picked this badge up yesterday from our favourite action site! Advertised as 'REME staybrite with KC.' As previous posts have indicated, this would indeed be a very scare beast indeed. Was a KC version ever produced? Who knows. I asked the question and was assured it was a KC, so I took the chance even though the badge looked in poor condition. Not a fortune in any event. This is what I received; a battered and scuffed badge which has seen better days.
However, on closer examination this badge has been made as one piece. All 2nd pattern REME badges either brass/WM or AA that I have ever seen have been of two part construction. So, what do I have here? Could this be an early trial badge or a failed attempt at a fake? Note that the length of the scrolls are uneven. Did the manufacturer abandon a one piece construction for two because of cost, manufacturing problems, ease of production? The reverse picture clearly shows how the horse and globe (silver) is part of the lightening and sroll (gold). Anyone seen anything like this before, and could the same have applied to other badges that were/are two part construction?

[Alan O]

Sorry but its a queens crown badge with a crushed crown. Send it back.

[engr9266]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Sorry but its a queens crown badge with a crushed crown. Send it back.

It is quite clearly a Queens crown BUT the question is "Is this one piece badge rare or not" ??

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by engr9266

It is quite clearly a Queens crown BUT the question is "Is this one piece badge rare or not" ??

Hi Guys,

I don't think that this is actually a one piece badge but a two piece one with a separate horse over a background ourline. A side image may help.

i.e. a silver horse part over a gold backing structure.

I have not seen a REME badge like this before but it looks like it has a Marples and Beasley type slider. This is an early item and Marples and Bealsey made quite a few pieces that were unmarked with this type of slider i.e. not with a makers designation which was against the official specification at the time - UK/SC/2124 if I remember.

Other badges with this slider include one piece RE items (which, it appears were rejected by the Army Dress Committee but still issued), Malay Regt. and a few other items but I don't have my notes with me.

Just remembered, there are KC RAOC pieces with this slider too but I do not have any official info on such items. However, I do include examples of them in my book in the first chapter which covers the history of A/A badges as these KC RAOC badges may have been experimental items.

To conclude - I think it is a two piece QC badge, made in the mid 1950's by Marples and Beasley and issued via normal channels.

Regards

Chris

[54Bty]

I believe it is 1 piece, and if you do not want it let me know and I will take it off your hands, scruffy as it is.

Marc

[jeep]

OK. Two side pics. Sorry for the delay, but have been on the golf course all day with a bite to eat and a glass of wine after. It's a hard life being retired! But I digress.
Alan. I appreciate that this was always going to be a QC badge, but there is no way it is going back. I think I have something special here.
Chris. I have examined this badge closely even probing with a needle, and there is no join between the horse/globe and the lightning/scroll. See the pics, even if they were two parts, the horse element would be no more than 1mm thick. This is a one piece badge. I hope you can add something more to this interesting find.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by jeep

OK. Two side pics. Sorry for the delay, but have been on the golf course all day with a bite to eat and a glass of wine after. It's a hard life being retired! But I digress.
Alan. I appreciate that this was always going to be a QC badge, but there is no way it is going back. I think I have something special here.
Chris. I have examined this badge closely even probing with a needle, and there is no join between the horse/globe and the lightning/scroll. See the pics, even if they were two parts, the horse element would be no more than 1mm thick. This is a one piece badge. I hope you can add something more to this interesting find.

Hi Jeep,

Looks like a one part item and Marples and Beasley did make the one part RE badges too. One single part RE badge can be seen here, with a few others, which I just picked up from eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...:B:WNA:US:1123

Note that the slider of the one part RE badge is the same as your REME badge.

Regards

Chris

[REMEVMBEA1]

I have a bi metal RCEME KC badge where the horse and globe are made in brass and a WM horse and globe overlaid on top but the example that Jeep shows seems to be a different construction. Two coloured AA badges made in 1 piece are not at all uncommon, I just looked in my odds and ends box and found 3R I Rangers, AGC and WRAC made like that.