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  #1  
Old 06-06-09, 10:27 AM
'Ticker' Riley's Avatar
'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Badge Manufacture by Sub-Contractors

As a new collector I was rather intrigued by the Grand Duchess’ recent posting elsewhere on the Forum about the use of sub-contractors in relation to badge manufacture:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Duchess View Post
May I suggest that it is dangerous to assume that, simply because a maker's name appears on a badge, button or other accoutrement, that the item was manufactured by that firm. Military procurement is famous for sub-contracting and, quite often, named suppliers had nothing whatever to do with the making of the items in question. Certainly this is more likely with the 'big names' Firmin, Gaunt, British Badge & Button Co., etc. The further back you go, the more you find sub-contracting. Often a microscopic examination of the striking confirms that the same badge was being made by more than one source, despite universal naming.
If I am reading things correctly here the implication is that makers such as J. R. Gaunt & Son actually had their badges made by somebody else, and that they then merely put their name on them? My humble understanding of things was that firms such as Gaunt or Firmin were actually badge makers, with a proud manufacturing history. I think it would make sense for them to buy in some things such as fixings (i.e. sliders, lugs, blades) from other companies, but I find it hard to believe the casting or stamping of their badges would have actually been done by others!? In fact some of this was raised by Chris Marsh in his reply to the Duchess’ original posting, and with specific regard to his research into anodised aluminium badges:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Not found anything official as such in the anodised aluminium area although I have found the same slider being used by multiple companies who have then applied their different names to the same slider type. Also the same lug type being used by different companies.
I don’t doubt that sub-contracting was, and is, a common practice with regard to the production of military regalia and accoutrement, but does this really mean that cap badges in particular were made by firms other than those whose name they bear (where they are marked that is, as so often it seems most badges are actually unmarked)? Perhaps more experienced Forum members would have knowledge or opinions about this, as I would certainly be interested to hear of any evidence that Gaunt cap badges for instance were not actually made by that company even when they carry their genuine makers’ mark.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 06-06-09 at 01:04 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-06-09, 12:44 PM
guest456
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Default Badge manufacturer by sub-contractors

'Ticker' Riley - May I emphasise that my comments related to the increased demand for badges and buttons in early 1915. I believe that. after WW1 we see a concentration of larger firms of badge and button makers and the loss of the smaller ones. Jennens, of course, became part of J. R. Gaunt in 1924 and thereafter, the industry was dominated by Gaunt, Pitt, Firmin and then Buttons Ltd., the latter growing substantially with the advent of anodised aluminium. Stalwart firms like Smith and Wright and Wm. Dowler did not survive to the second half of the 20th century. If there is to be a debate of my earlier comments, then I feel it should be debated in context - the proliferation of sub-contractors at the beginning of WW1.
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  #3  
Old 06-06-09, 01:27 PM
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Default Increased demand during the Great War

Hello GD

Thank you for clarifying your views on sub-contracting in connection to badge manufacture, and that your comments were particularly in relation to an increase of demand during the Great War. As your quoted comment above was posted to a thread specifically about later anodised aluminium badges, there was certainly nothing to indicate a context with a proliferation of sub-contractors at the beginning of the First World War.

Now that you have clarified this, hopefully others may indeed be able to debate your view point. As I have said, whilst I can understand sub-contractors supplying sliders or lugs, I still can’t see a firm like Gaunt having badges made by another company and then marking them as their own. I’m sure that during the War smaller firms did start making badges to meet the increased demand, but that isn’t quite the same thing as a company like J. R. Gaunt & Son buying in badges to put their makers’ mark on them. Maybe someone else knows more about all of this, because as a new collector I’d really be keen to know if this did happen!

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #4  
Old 06-06-09, 10:13 PM
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Default Sub-contracters

The manufacture of insignia was a specialised trade. The main stated purpose of introducung 'economy' badges in 1916 was to produce simple badges that negated the needs for specialists. This would provide the opportunity for sub-contracts.

During WW2 there were certainly many more manufacturers authorised to fill Ministry of Supply contracts. As yet I haven't had the opportunity to record them. During WW2 the supply of metals to the trade was rationed, hence to bakelite plastic badges. No unauthorised manufacturer would be provided with the basic manufacturing needs by the M of S.

Post-war I don't think that sub-contracting occured at all. Certainly in the late 1940's through to the 1950's production of St. Edward's crown badges I recall reading letters from Gaunt, Firmin or someone apologising to the M of S for late supply on contracts. The excuse was the shortage of tradesmen available. This would indicate they couldn't sub-contract either.

Of course, bazaar copies have been made since the year 'dot'. I don't class them as sub-contracts but do collect them as specimens of badges worn.

Regards, Stephen.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-09, 10:50 AM
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Default Badge Manufacture – supply and demand

Hi Stephen

Many thanks indeed for your contribution on this – very interesting to read about the situation with regard to badge production during the Second World War, and the shortage of tradesmen after the War affecting supply.

I would think that during the Great War things would have been pretty similar, in as much as the increased demand would have led to more companies turning to badge manufacture to fill that need. I think this is, in part, what the Grand Duchess was suggesting. In a PM to me about things she did mention the situation with regard to the production of general service buttons, where apparently many carry the names of “relatively unknown cottage industry type firms”, and how it would make sense that these same companies also turned to making badges.

I think this is a quite reasonable assumption, and as you say the introduction of economy badges in 1916 would have enabled non-specialist badge making firms to begin production. But I have to say that GD’s initial comment suggested that the badges made by these smaller firms, acting as sub-contractors, were then marked with the makers’ name of one of the larger badge companies such as J. R. Gaunt & Son.

As a new collector I do find this suggestion rather odd, and can only speak of my own experience with regard to my work on the Leicesters badges. In this case all the badges I have seen carrying a genuine Gaunt mark are always the exact same design/style of tiger, all of which are obviously taken from the same pattern (i.e. the physically pattern used to create the moulds, whether they be used for die-casting or die-striking). The only Leicesters badges that don’t conform to this Gaunt style of tiger are those that have the infamous “J.R.Gaunt.London” mark (the Gaunt ‘dot’ 15mm. mark) associated with so called later restrikes; though as they are not actually restrikes of the Gaunt badge in this respect I would actually be inclined to call them fakes.

Anyway, I think it does make sense that badge production during the First World War was undertaken by many firms that hadn’t previously been involved in such work, though I have to say I still find it hard to believe that companies like Gaunt would then pass them off as their own by adding their named mark to them!? I haven’t personally found any proof of this yet with my study of the Leicestershire badges, but if someone can supply evidence then that would be really interesting.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 07-06-09 at 07:48 PM.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-09, 11:57 AM
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Default Badge manufacture by sub-contractors

As an addendum to my previous comment I would like to say that, as an example, Hobsons of Lexington St., London used C. Pitt & Co., of Maddox St., London to manufacture badges and accoutrements for them - with the Hobson name clearly marked. The vast majority of items were of officer quality but it does show that makers used sub-contractors yet had their own name placed upon items made. There was also the practice of military tailors having their names marked on such items by sub-contractors - Jones of Regent Street is an example - they never made a badge, accoutrement or button in their entire existence but their name is to be found on many. Also Ranken of Calcutta used small sub-contractors to make items for them but Ranken was also well identified as the maker's mark - and many an item was made in India.
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  #7  
Old 07-06-09, 12:19 PM
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Default Badge manufacture by sub-contractors

Badjez - May I, politely, take issue with you on the reason for the introduction of brass economy badges in WW1. The sole reason was to reduce the use of nickel in badge manufacturing. Labour was cheap and there were plenty of civilians (women factory workers included) available in the many UK manufacturing processes, badge-making included. Lead was also at a premium so, although we talk of 'soldering' lugs and sliders, the process was actually low-temperature brazing which used no lead at all.
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Old 07-06-09, 12:54 PM
Chrisr Chrisr is offline
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Default

GD,
Your sole reason seems to be at odds with the following from KLR in older thread on this issue.

The REASON why these "economy" issues came into being is simple. Although I don't have such a book in fropnt of me, any British economic history will tell you that by 1916 (the process started - surprisingly late? - in about the mid 19th century) the cost of labour had outstripped the cost of materials.

Now to the evidence, the following was signed on the 1st March 1916
"For necessary action. For the period of the war, all badges now made partly in G.M. & partly in white metal, will be made wholly of the former. Badges entirely of white metal will remain as heretofore."

The wording to contractors was
"The attention of the contractor is called to the fact that in many cases Badges made hitherto partly of GM & partly of GS are now required to be made of a single thickness of metal only. "

The end came in May 1919
"The decision to the effect that certain cap badges made of gilding metal and white metal, should, as a temporary measure, be made wholly of the former, is now abrogated, and pre-war patterns are to be reverted to. "

To my mind, there is no doubt that it was the construction process that was being addressed. As you will know, there were various other measures taken with badge production at the time - such as the "solid" badges without any expensive voiding / fretting (even though some was mechanical as noted).

The thread is here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...Economy+badges

Cheers
Chris
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  #9  
Old 07-06-09, 01:30 PM
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'Ticker' Riley 'Ticker' Riley is offline
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Default Hobson & Son Badges made by Pitt & Co.

Hi GD

This is more like it – so now we have some actual makers’ names in the frame, so to speak!

I’ll be honest and admit I am not familiar at all with either Hobson & Son Ltd or Charles Pitt & Co., so it is interesting to hear about how the latter apparently supplied the former with badges that were then marked with the Hobson name. Presumably you have some examples in mind, so I’d be glad to know what badges we are exactly talking about here? I’d also like to know what your source is for the fact you know certain badges marked Hobson were actually made by Pitt?

Military tailors marking badges with their name as retailers/suppliers would be a separate issue, and one not directly related to your initial comments which implied that the major badge making companies, like J. R. Gaunt & Son, sub-contracted some of their badge manufacture only to mark the resulting items with their own name; as in the Hobson/Pitt case you’ve now mentioned.

As to the economy badges and labour saving - my understanding, from reading various things here on the Forum, was that the labour saving aspect was connected with the time taken to make a badge. That is to say the production of badges being speeded up by just making badges in gilding metal for example, instead of having to also affix separate white-metal overlaid parts. I’m sure Stephen or other members will be able to address this better than I can.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 07-06-09 at 03:46 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-06-09, 02:16 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Duchess View Post
Badjez - May I, politely, take issue with you on the reason for the introduction of brass economy badges in WW1. The sole reason was to reduce the use of nickel in badge manufacturing. Labour was cheap and there were plenty of civilians (women factory workers included) available in the many UK manufacturing processes, badge-making included. Lead was also at a premium so, although we talk of 'soldering' lugs and sliders, the process was actually low-temperature brazing which used no lead at all.
May I politely disagree. Official records state the exact opposite and state that all wm badges were to remain unchanged. It is absolutely clear that the reason was to simplify labour and not save on nickel.

There are many threads but his one has the evidence:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...economy&page=2

I have a scan of the page in question if any further proof is needed.

There is no logic in removing the tiny amount of white metal in the rose of the KOYLI badge (yet there was an economy issue) but not changing the large amount of w/m for the Scottish badges for brass (which they did not). To pre-empt any questions about brass Scottish badges as has been shown on other threads all-brass BW and Seaforth badges were made for Canadian regts, Cameronians were originally Blackened brass pre WW1 and the Argylles and Gordons have been mistakenly faked in all brass. However to remove the labour required by making the KOYLI one piece and simplifying the tricky inlaid pieces, does make perfect sense.


Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 07-06-09 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 07-06-09, 06:06 PM
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Curiously enough not one of all the documents I have studied on this matter use the term "economy" !
Secondly, the WO and RACD had used the term GM since 1897. This is not a change in terminiology it is/was a specific change in metallurgy !
They also use the term GS (= German Silver) for white metal though by the time of the 1st WW their records used both GS and WM almost interchangeably.
J

PS there are some Hobsons drawings of badges from the 1890s at the National Archives. Though on Hobson headed paper there is nothing to indicate who actually made them - though I have my own opinion of course.

Last edited by KLR; 07-06-09 at 06:08 PM. Reason: added postscript
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  #12  
Old 07-06-09, 06:23 PM
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Default The marking of Sub-contractors’ badges

Many thanks to Chris, Alan and Julian for clearing up the economy issue here; pretty conclusively it would seem! Hopefully we can now keep this particular thread focused on the issue at hand - of some makers apparently marking the badges of smaller sub-contracted firms with their own marks. As I said previously, I would be interested to know which badges in particular the Grand Duchess has in mind with regard to Hobson & Son and Pitt & Co., and also how she knows they were actually made by Pitt and not Hobson? If anyone else has any further evidence for other firms behaving in a similar fashion, especially with regard to J. R. Gaunt & Son or any of the major badge manufacturers, then I’d be most glad to hear of this too.

Regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 07-06-09 at 06:37 PM.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-09, 08:16 PM
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Ministry of Supply records for badge makers during the 2nd WW make very interesting reading. Pitt were famous as button makers but in this period they seem to have teamed up with Swatkin - has anyone ever heard of anything made by 'Pitt & Swatkin' ?
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Old 07-06-09, 08:17 PM
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Hi Guys,

Very late in this - been away with Missus and Mutt.

From an anodised perspective only I can only re-iterate what I previously said on some sharing of lugs (Firmin/Toye for sure and other pairs of companies - Firmin/S&W if I remember) and some sliders (one particular slider used by Firmin/Dowler) that seem to have been cut from the same tool.

There is though at least one badge being the Kings Liverpool that been made from the same obverse die and marked with Firmin and Dowler marks to the slider. Firmin acquired Dowler in 1970. There is also the issue of the Timings and LB&B Norfolk Regt badge although this unit had finished active service before LB&B came on the scene.

For anodised badges I can assure that from the early days both Gaunt and Firmin (and others) made their own badges as shown by letters to and from the War Office.

Again, I have no evidence of sub-contracting in the anodised field although I am following up a possible thread in a very late manufactured OTC item form possibly around 2000 that may have been sub-contracted. Again, this is only a possible occurrence and will be based on examining the badges themselves (obverse and reverse dies, slider and solder) when I can compare both and not on documented evidence. For info - Firmin is not the company involved.

Regards

Chris
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