RMB Cap badge

[RCN]

I am requesting some info on the attached RBM cap badge.

I am not an RMB collector as such but I do have a couple RMB medal groups from the WWI & pre WWI period & am interested in the time frame this badge would have been worn.

& when it was superceeded what badge would the RMB service have worn?

thanks in advance,

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
This is a second pattern capbadge of the Royal Naval School of Music, the
first pattern had a larger lyre.
It was worn from 1921-1946 and is found in gilding metal for band ranks and in gilt for Sgts.
Members of the RNSM wore RMB shoulder titles and lyre collars, after 1946
the capbadge and shoulder titles ceased to be worn.
These were replaced by standard Royal Marines capbadges and shoulder titles
and in 1951 the lyre collars were replaced with globe and laurel collar badges.
In 1950 the Royal Naval School of Music was renamed the Royal Marines School of Music.

John

[RCN]

Thank you very much for that explanation John, the badge I have illustrated above came with the medals of a RM Bandmaster WWI period.

I also have a photo of him with his Band on HMS Commonweath, I think circa 1907 & the cap badge he (& also the band members) is wearing does not appear to have a lyre above the globe at all. I will try to post a close up shot of it.

Another question I have for you concerns the RM Bandmaster badges you illustrated in a prior thread in this section - you state they are for WO2.
I thought Bandmaster 1st class were ranked as WO1's. What type of badge would a WO1 Bandmaster have worn??

Bryan

[RCN]

Here is the Band photo John - Bandmaster in centre wearing medals.

Photo taken in 1909.

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
Before the Royal Naval School of Music was formed in 1903 the only Royal Marines bands were RMLI Divisions Chatham, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Depot Deal, and the RMA band at Eastney.
The only time these bands went to sea was on a Royal Tour or overseas to entertain the colonies or troops like in France.
The Royal Navy wanted ships bands and so the Royal Naval School of Music was formed in 1903.
From 1906 to 1921 the capbadge was the Globe and Laurel like a collar and from 1906 to 1951 the collar badge was a Lyre.
Over the years Bandmasters badges would change with the times.
Chief Bandmaster (WO) 1903-1910
Bandmaster RM (WO1) 1910-1920
Wore a badge on his sleeve in bullion wire a Crown on top of a Lyre with Oak Leaves.
A Bandmaster 1st Class 1903-1920 wore a Royal Academy Lyre with a Star above.
A Bandmaster 2nd Class 1903-1920 wore a Royal Academy Lyre.
In 1921 the rank badges for Bandmasters would change again as follows,
Bandmaster 1st Class 1921-1947 wore a Lyre with Oak Leaves with a Star above.
Bandmaster 2nd Class 1921-1947 wore a Lyre with Oak Leaves.
In 1947 it changed again and in 1950 the Royal Naval School of Music was no more it became the Royal Marines School of Music.
Bandmaster 1947-1970 wore a Crown on top of a Lyre with Oak Leaves.
After 1970 the rank Bandmaster was stopped and they became Band Colour Sergeants.
In 1972 WO2 Bandmaster rank came back with a Lyre surrounded by Oak Leaves with a Crown at the top.

John

[RCN]

Thanks for that listing John - what is a Royal Academy Lyre?
Is it different from the normal Bandmaster Lyre? & can you post a photo of it?

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
This is a Royal Academy Lyre which is a term the Royal Marines use.

John

[RCN]

Thanks John, I have a couple lyres like this one.

I have att'd a few Band & Bandmaster Lyre badges I have rec'd with another RM Bandmaster group of medals. He was a pre WWII regular & served I think until approx 1955.

I will attach next a pic of the B/M & perhaps you can make out his B/M sleeve badge,

Now here another question for you - The RM Bandmaster badges appear identical to the Army badges. How does one tell the difference between the two?


Bryan

[RCN]

Here are some snapshots of the B/M I mentioned in previous post....
They were taken on HMS Sussex, late '40's.

Hopefully yo can make out his B/M sleeve badge & perhaps even collar badges,. The photos are pretty small,

Bryan

[RCN]

Just had look under the magnif glass & his B/M sleeve badge is defintely KC. & his collar badges are a lyre, no crown or wreath.

The Gunnery Sergt on his right( Itried to enlarge a bit pic but loses contrast & sharpness) appears to be wearing Globe & Laurel collar badges, but both their cap badges appear to be the same.

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
If your picture was taken in the late 1940s of the Bandmaster it will be a
Bandmaster 1st Class 1921-1947.
The attachment picture is not that good I took it through glass but it will give you an idea what it look like.
Telling the difference between Royal Marines Bandmaster badges and Army
is normally size.
The Royal Marines is large about 120mm by 90mm the Army and the Central
Band of the RAF are smaller.
Royal Marines wore a metal branch badge up to the rank of Band Sergeant
from the 1950s to 1970 like the one with the red backing.
But Royal Marines would not have had that red backing and through the 1960s
it would have been anodized and the crown would be different.
The attached picture has has an error below saying Royal Marines Officers and Warrant Officers badges it should read Bandmaster 1st Class.

John

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
If you say it has a Kingscrown then its this badge Bandmaster 1947-1954
sorry about the poor picture.
If they have the same capbadges it dates the picture from 1947-51

John

[RCN]

Originally Posted by stonehouse boy

Hi Bryan,
If your picture was taken in the late 1940s of the Bandmaster it will be a
Bandmaster 1st Class 1921-1947.


John

Yes John that would fit the time frame you state.

Thanks for posting those two photos. Never seen on B/M badge with the star above before.

Its a bitch trying o photograph thru glass!

Bryan