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View Poll Results: Anodised Aluminium - The 'No Bull' Cap Badge of the British Army
Yes - I would like to express probable intent to purchase. 66 58.93%
Maybe - I would like to express possible intent to purchase. 30 26.79%
No - Not my area of collecting interest. 16 14.29%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 03-06-10, 08:14 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Hi Guys,

Anodising is the formation of an anodic crust of aluminium oxide on aluminium metal. This occurs naturally and is also built on in one of the processes of A/A badge manufacture. The purpose of anodising is to create a hardened surface to protect the badge and to also allow colour dye to permeate into it thereby providing a base for the dye to be taken up.

Colouring is a totally separate process from anodising and many cock-ups occurred where the badge has been anodised and not coloured and then sealed which prevented the badge being re-coloured. A lot of these badges are sold as 'rare' officers versions and are deemed to be silver although Blind Freddie could tell the difference if placed next to a silver coloured A/A badge.

As far as I know only aluminium can be anodised.

With regard to K+K and A/A badges. All I can say is that I am very disappointed with the level of accuracy in this book and have not used it for any material in my current project. It may be better with non A/A badges but that is a subject that I know nothing about.

Andy - might have a small job for you for the weekend...

Regards

Chris
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  #17  
Old 03-06-10, 09:19 PM
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magpie magpie is offline
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Hi chris
Other metals can be anodised, i used tool steel punches coated with titanium which were anodised gold in colour,they lasted twice as long as plain tool steel before regrinding,and i think some aircraft and military components are also anodised for rust, corrosion, wear resistance and identification.
Andy.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-10, 09:30 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Originally Posted by magpie View Post
Hi chris
Other metals can be anodised, i used tool steel punches coated with titanium which were anodised gold in colour,they lasted twice as long as plain tool steel before regrinding,and i think some aircraft and military components are also anodised for rust, corrosion, wear resistance and identification.
Andy.
Hi Andy,

Is it the colouring which makes them hard or is the colouring a result of the hardening process?

With A/A badges the anodising stage is totally separate from the colouring one but many consider the colouring of anodised aluminium cap badges to be anodising - this is not so. I can only speak from an A/A cap badge view on this of course and will take board on the processing of other metals with great interest.

Regards

Chris
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  #19  
Old 03-06-10, 09:43 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Guys,

Anodising is the formation of an anodic crust of aluminium oxide on aluminium metal. This occurs naturally and is also built on in one of the processes of A/A badge manufacture. The purpose of anodising is to create a hardened surface to protect the badge and to also allow colour dye to permeate into it thereby providing a base for the dye to be taken up.

Colouring is a totally separate process from anodising and many cock-ups occurred where the badge has been anodised and not coloured and then sealed which prevented the badge being re-coloured. A lot of these badges are sold as 'rare' officers versions and are deemed to be silver although Blind Freddie could tell the difference if placed next to a silver coloured A/A badge.

As far as I know only aluminium can be anodised.

With regard to K+K and A/A badges. All I can say is that I am very disappointed with the level of accuracy in this book and have not used it for any material in my current project. It may be better with non A/A badges but that is a subject that I know nothing about.

Andy - might have a small job for you for the weekend...

Regards

Chris
"Andy - might have a small job for you for the weekend..."

Hope it's not too big!!! Big Rugby game on!!

Andy
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  #20  
Old 03-06-10, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
"Andy - might have a small job for you for the weekend..."

Hope it's not too big!!! Big Rugby game on!!

Andy
Hi Andy,

Just wnat you to check my Variations chapter with special reference to the Welsh Guards A/A badge - or should I say badges...

No hurry.

Regards

Chris
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  #21  
Old 03-06-10, 09:49 PM
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I don't think the colouring has anything to do with the hardening process,if i see one of my friends i will ask him to explain it all to me as he worked in metal finishing.
Andy
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  #22  
Old 03-06-10, 10:36 PM
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I don't think the colouring has anything to do with the hardening process,if i see one of my friends i will ask him to explain it all to me as he worked in metal finishing.
Andy
Andy

Take a look at my post http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=10939&page=2 and give me your opinion on the badge I have illustrated as a possible "Gold-Adonised" badge..... if you have seen its use then you should be able to identify it ( I hope )?
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  #23  
Old 03-06-10, 10:38 PM
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davec2 davec2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi Guys,

Anodising is the formation of an anodic crust of aluminium oxide on aluminium metal. This occurs naturally and is also built on in one of the processes of A/A badge manufacture. The purpose of anodising is to create a hardened surface to protect the badge and to also allow colour dye to permeate into it thereby providing a base for the dye to be taken up.

Colouring is a totally separate process from anodising and many cock-ups occurred where the badge has been anodised and not coloured and then sealed which prevented the badge being re-coloured. A lot of these badges are sold as 'rare' officers versions and are deemed to be silver although Blind Freddie could tell the difference if placed next to a silver coloured A/A badge.

[[As far as I know only aluminium can be anodised.]]

With regard to K+K and A/A badges. All I can say is that I am very disappointed with the level of accuracy in this book and have not used it for any material in my current project. It may be better with non A/A badges but that is a subject that I know nothing about.

Andy - might have a small job for you for the weekend...

Regards

Chris
Hi Chris,

You've done such a wonderful job with the research etc into your new book that I'm almost afraid to make this point, I'm now going back over thirty five years to before I started welding.

I was, previous to welding, a metal polisher for close to ten years and if I can remember correctly ( and there lies the problem ), I was under the impression that anodising was a form of electro-plating and yes, mainly, in those days, for applying a coat to, for instance, door furniture etc.

I am however, certain that the process used then, could also be used on brass and other non ferrous metals, I am open to being corrected but I'm sure I'm right, hence my remark to Griff that anodised doesn't necessarily apply only to Aluminium.............................if I'm wrong, I'll apologise in advance but............

Regards.

Dave.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-10, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davec2 View Post
Hi Chris,

You've done such a wonderful job with the research etc into your new book that I'm almost afraid to make this point, I'm now going back over thirty five years to before I started welding.

I was, previous to welding, a metal polisher for close to ten years and if I can remember correctly ( and there lies the problem ), I was under the impression that anodising was a form of electro-plating and yes, mainly, in those days, for applying a coat to, for instance, door furniture etc.

I am however, certain that the process used then, could also be used on brass and other non ferrous metals, I am open to being corrected but I'm sure I'm right, hence my remark to Griff that anodised doesn't necessarily apply only to Aluminium.............................if I'm wrong, I'll apologise in advance but............

Regards.

Dave.
Hi Dave,

When I got into the manufacturing of A/A badges I was lucky enough to obtain good articles of the manufacturing process of A/A badges from the era (1950's) and from the A/A industry itself (Gaunt). There are two main processes using electricity in the manufacturing of many badges being electroplating and anodising. All this is written up in detail (possibly too much but that will be up to the reader to decide) in one of my chapters concerned with the manufacture of these items.

In effect both processes are similar in the surface of metal is changed by an electrical process but where electroplating puts metal onto a surface anodising basically takes it off or more properly changes it from pure state to a crust of oxide. As I know things (i.e. remember) electroplating adds the colour at the electroplating stage while all anodising does is create this crust.

The badge with its newly created crust is then coloured in a bath via a warm solution of dye with the dye entering the crust pores. Without the anodic crust and its pores no coloured A/A badges. The badges are later boiled in distilled water to seal the pores keeping the colour IN and keeping OUT other colours, dirt etc.

While I am sure many metals (and hence badges) can be electroplated I have only found aluminium as capable of being anodised (I do stand to be corrected though) and I think the main problem is that when people comment on a badge being anodised it has in reality been electroplated.

Hope this helps!!!

Regards

Chris
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  #25  
Old 04-06-10, 07:51 AM
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Hi Chris,

If there was an icon in the form of a white flag, I would now click on it, I am obviously crossing my wires somewhat here, I am well open to being corrected.

My one memory, which is still confusing me, is how, back in the 60's, we would do ' foreigners ' for mates, in regard m'bike and car parts, I have, on several occasions, stripped the chrome and re-polished parts for what I thought was anodising ( there were some weird and wonderful things going on in those days ) but I generally get most things wrong, so why not this time too ??

I still think that you are doing brilliantly with your work/book and can't wait for the outcome........

Dave.
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  #26  
Old 04-06-10, 08:07 AM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Originally Posted by davec2 View Post
Hi Chris,

If there was an icon in the form of a white flag, I would now click on it, I am obviously crossing my wires somewhat here, I am well open to being corrected.

My one memory, which is still confusing me, is how, back in the 60's, we would do ' foreigners ' for mates, in regard m'bike and car parts, I have, on several occasions, stripped the chrome and re-polished parts for what I thought was anodising ( there were some weird and wonderful things going on in those days ) but I generally get most things wrong, so why not this time too ??

I still think that you are doing brilliantly with your work/book and can't wait for the outcome........

Dave.
Thanks Dave,

The manufacturing process of A/A badges is really quite interesting and little known - it was one of the more eye opening aspects of all the work I have done on these badges over the last few years.

As an afterthought - K+K may not have known the difference between electroplating and anodising in regard to badge manufacture hence the frequent use of the word 'anodised' and my issue with many A/A items in their book. As you all know; I know nothing about pre A/A badges but if some badges were actually electroplated then they may have mixed the terms up and called all 'shiny' badges anodised - just a thought.

Regards

Chris
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  #27  
Old 07-06-10, 12:36 PM
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Hi Chris,

Sorry mate but ' dog ' and ' bone ' come to mind here !

I've just received this badge, described by the seller as ' silver, gilt and enamel ', well it does have enamel ? I'm not sure about the gilt and I'm pretty sure it isn't silver.

The badge is quite heavy, the same weight as my A/A London Scottish and only half the size...........................soooo, if it isn't Aluminium, do you know how the finish is achieved ?? this is a typical example of what I would call anodised, am I that far off from reality ??

After I receive a firm answer, I will of course, be contacting the seller, to ask him why he described it as silver when it is, in fact, only a silver effect !!

As always, your time is appreciated and you have my thanks in advance.

Dave.

PS, This badge, apparently, came through Marlowe's auctions so it must be silver, gilt and enamel !!

DC.
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Last edited by davec2; 07-06-10 at 12:50 PM. Reason: PS
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  #28  
Old 07-06-10, 01:04 PM
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I think the term is 'frosted' silver - the Scottish yeo badges were the same: a very thin layer of gilt and a very thin layer of silver effect.
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  #29  
Old 07-06-10, 01:24 PM
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Hello Alan,

I fully understand what you mean but in this case there is absolutely no comparison in the quality of finish, not in my view anyway and the King's Div is certainly not ' frosted ', your thoughts again please.

I will show the original listing when I have a more definitive answer ???

Dave.
PS, I might add that because of the description I put a snipe on this one and won it for.................................wait for it..............................over £20, looking at the badge in the flesh, so to speak, I have to wonder if it is worth that ????

DC.
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Last edited by davec2; 07-06-10 at 01:30 PM. Reason: PS
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  #30  
Old 07-06-10, 01:38 PM
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Not to be rude Dave, but the scroll looks like it's been spray painted, and does not compare really to the other badge you posted, does it appear like this in real life?

ATB,
Tom
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