Southern Command formation badges

[Julius21]

Hi there,

I am fairly new to the forum so I apologise if these questions have been asked and answered before. (If so I'd be happy to be pointed towards the relevant threads).

1. Does anybody have an idea of how many variations on the 5 white stars on a shield of the basic Southern Command badge existed, worn by troops in the South of England in the 1940s/50s?

2. Also, my interest is largely in the RAEC at this period and I see lots of badges on sale marked as RAEC Southern Command, however I wonder if they are not instead the 1st pattern of the RAOC Southern Command badge - which changed in 1941.?

Both badges were 5 white stars on a blue background, but the RAEC badge was on a light blue/Cambridge blue background - the RAOC 1st pattern was on a dark blue background.

As the RAOC was a much larger corps, I feel that many of the 'RAEC Southern Command' badges are more likely to be RAOC badges. But I am very interested to hear what others think.
best
Julius

[Peter Brydon]

Howard Cole ( Formation Badges of WW2 ) lists 18 variations of this badge.
As you say RAEC is listed as cambridge blue with white stars. But the RAOC is listed as red with central vertical black bar and white stars- no mention of any changes in design

P.B.

[lettman]

Hi Julius,
Welcome to the forum. In addition to the 18 listed by Cole, as PB mentions, Rosignoli also lists one for the Catering Corps (grey shield with yellow stars) and one 'Miscellaneous' (shield divided horizontally black over red, with white stars). He also lists two variants for the Dental Corps. I only have six types in my collection, and don't recall ever having seen a full actual set (as opposed to just illustrations), so can't verify what the exact final tally should be.
As to your query about the RAEC sign, there shouldn't be any potential confusion, as no other corps had a plain blue shield as background, either dark or light shade. The Signals had half blue and half white, and the RASC half blue and half yellow. I can post pics of these if you'd like (but don't have the RAEC version).

here some photos of the badges

ROYAL SIGNALS
ROYAL SIGNALS WOVEN FORMATION SIGN.jpg

RAEC WOVEN
SOUTHERN COMMAND RAEC WOVEN FORMATION SIGN 1.jpg


SOUTHERN COMMAND BADGES.jpg

[rolfi]

A while back I wrote and illustrated an article on this very subject. You can find it in "The Formation Sign", the journal of the Military Heraldry Society, No. 207 July-Sept 2002. I reckon there are at least 28 distinct variants; not counting slight differences in colours or manufacturing techniques. One error in the article I'd like take this opportunity to correct is that the version with light blue stars on a blue shield is that of the Army Air Corps; not RAEC.

Hope that helps

RW

[Julius21]

Hi there

Thank you all for your replies - I really appreciate it.

Since my first post I have just come across Mike Comerford's excellent website on the RAOC - and he takes a differing view on the Soutrhern Command RAOC badges and their colours, which forum members may be interested in.

I am keen to know what people think about this.

In essence the RAOC Southern Command badge was originally dark blue shield and 5 white stars, then changed to its more familiar red blue red.

His reference for the badge change is ACI 2587 - I haven't researched this, but it would be interesting to know if this does explain the two types of badges and the change in colours for the RAOC - and also B.L. Morris’s ‘British Cloth Formation Signs’

I have quoted from the site below... and I hope I have added the pics corerctly.

Does anybody have a definite answer on this, because as you say it does go against what Howard Cole lists in his books?

best wishes

Julius

"1st Pattern - Printed 5 White Stars on a Navy Blue Background.
2nd Pattern - Embroidered 5 White Stars on a Red-Navy Blue-Red Background.
(Both illustrated with matching RAOC 'Arms of Service' strip)
Unlike all the other UK Commands, Southern Command had a range of ‘Corps Troops’ Formation Patches based on 5 stars on a Regimental or Corps colours background. The RAOC example changed from all Navy Blue background to Red,Blue,Red background when ACI 2587 dated 27 Dec 1941 changed the RAOC’s Arms of Service strip colours. The only Regiment or Corps to have their Arms of Service colours changed."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.co...RDNANCE/41.htm

[rolfi]

ACI 2587 refered to the colours used as arm of service strips, not directly to Southern Command badges.

[lettman]

Julius,
Thanks for the reminder re the change in the RAOC's arm-of-service strip. I should have remembered this, as I have a WW2 service dress tunic to the RAOC in 47th Div (or it might have still been 2nd London Div then) with a dark blue strip under the div sign. Even so, I've never seen any other reference to a Southern Command RAOC sign in plain dark blue. I wonder, did the sign even exist before the RAOC changed colours (i.e. could the one you've illustrated be still for the RAEC)?

[Julius21]

Hi Rolfi and Lettman
Thank you for your replies. It is interesting that the RAOC orginal arm of service stripe was dark blue. However, if there nobody has found evidence of a dark blue Southern Command badge with 5 white stars on it which is definitely linked to the RAOC then maybe that is evidence in itself that there was no 1st version of a Southern Command RAOC badge.

I'd love to know whether the RAOC archives can shed any light on this!

best

Julius

[rolfi]

Then again is there any evidence linking the dark blue, or if printed almost black, shield to the RAEC?

[lettman]

I see that the 1985 edition of Cole (p. 18) states that the Command HQ version was introduced in July 1940. Of course it can't be assumed that all the other versions were adopted simultaneously; in fact, my hunch would be that the rest were brought in piecemeal fashion for the various corps. What did you find out about dates in researching your 'Formation Sign' article, Rolfi?

[Peter Brydon]

Rolfi`s article is obviously the definitive work on this subject but interestingly while look for something else I noticed that Guido Rosignoli in " Army Badges and Insignia since 1945" shows 21 variations.

P.B.

Apologies I had not noticed that Rosignoli`s book had already been mentioned in this thread

[lettman]

Nice to have the picture, though, PB -- cheers!