RND cap badges

[Chrisr]

In another thread we have been discussing variations of RND badges. Attached are mine which challenge some of the accepted wisdom regarding defining features of copies vs genuine badges.

The story behind the badges is as follows. I bought these badges in 1962 from an elderly collector (in his mid 60‘s) who was selling up his whole collection of badges in Perth, Western Australia. (Well my father forked out the money as I was at school at the time). I can pinpoint the date as it was the year I received my driver’s licence and they were the first collection of British badges I ever purchased. They were mounted on a large board with several other British and South African badges. I had never seen these ones before and on enquiring what they were, was introduced to the RND story. He had collected them many years before, and prior to WW2. The board was covered in a pale purple velvet cloth and on removing the badges the dark purple outline behind all the badges was quite striking, indicting they had been on the board for many years.

Some of them have differences which are said to be indicators of copies. If these badges are copies then they were made before WW2, or if the old gentleman was lying then not later than the early 1950’s given the distinctive dark purple outline behind each badge. To date I have no indication copies were made earlier than the 1970’s.

Only one has Gaunt plaque. It is these badges, and the age of the collection, that have convinced me there are variations for the RND badges, and that some of the differences which are regularly given as indicators of copies need re-thinking. That’s not to say copies have some of the differences shown on these badges, and perhaps some may have been the example used to make copies from.

Perhaps others can add their collection of genuine badges, together with the history of their acquisition so we can build up a folio of genuine RND badges.
I have included the RNAS and RMLI badge that came with the set. There were also an Anson, Benbow and Hawke shoulder titles with the set.


Cheers
Chris

[Sonofacqms]

Chris, Without commenting on your badges I have always felt that the RND had other makers besides Gaunt. I have two Hawke, one with a Gaunt plaque and one like yours with the flat loops. The latter had a loop missing and I made up one to match the remaining loop.

Therefore there must have been at least two if not more manufacturers.

Rob

[Alan O]

I have an identical NELSON one to you that came out of an Australian collection of WW1 badges. I cannot attribute any provence to it but it was in good company with a lot of other genuine badges. More significantly this type of badge design has been sold by Bosleys in recent years as being genuine articles. While no one is infallible and even Bosleys might make mistakes you are not likely to get a better recommendation from any dealer or auction house than them.

Unfortunately such has been the faking of Gaunt badges that they are all viewed with suspicion. It is almost certain that there were more than one manufacturer of the badges. Of course once people got suspiciouys of any non-Gaunt marked abdge two things happened: a lot of genuine badges were rejected and fakers started to put Gaunt plaques on copies.

[magpie]

There must have been more than one manufacturer if for no other reason than to supply badges (and not just RND) for replacement's to purchase for those lost, given to and made into sweetherts or just given away as souvenirs to people, they must also have been available in various qualities ranging from officer quality other ranks to what what we see as ridiculous looking fakes but may have seen more military service than the badge that had been originally issued.
Andy

[orasot]

Just thought I'd add this one to the thread, very interesting reading.
Wilf.

[royston]

Hi Orasot

The badge shown with three loops is a RND Officer's collar badge. I have an identical.

John

[Tinto]

Hi Chris and all,
Here are my Howe badges for comment.
Cheers,
Tinto

[dubaiguy]

Chris
As perhaps it was my comments to Andy's post on his Drake badge that generated your challenge on the perceived wisdom of what is right and wrong in RND Badges and then raised the issue of alternative manufacture, I thought I had better throw my lot in and show you what I have in my collection

The first 4 badges have the Gaunt tablet and perhaps don't deserve further comment in this debate.

But interestingly of the last two which don’t have tablets, the Hood badge is the same strike as you have shown in the first post. The patina of the badge is good without sign of artificial ageing and has discoloured 'gold' braze. I hadn't considered it an outright fake, but (in my ignorance) was never sure about it.

Conversely, my Nelson demonstrates all the hallmarks of a known fake (8 planks, straight lines on the sails), but curiously a voided pennant. Unlike more obvious RND fakes that have found their way into my collection and have been chucked out, I haven't thrown this one out because again it just doesn't feel like a fake. However, my 'follow the herd instinct' was to replace it once a better one came along.

So perhaps a conclusion for you is that you are not the only one with that particular Hood strike. For me, the provenance of your acquisition whilst not confirming it is right goes a long way to assuring me that there is a strong possibility that it is.

Thank you for starting an interesting thread on something that I had not really considered.

Mark

[Chrisr]

Hi Mark,

Ne'er fear, it wasn't your comments that led to me starting this thread. It evolved from a request from Paddy to show them, following my comments on the badges on the arnhemjim site on Andy's thread.

Thank you for displaying yours. Like yours mine have a genuine feel about them - lovely brass and had been polished in the past.

I think we have to keep an open mind on the RND badges, and try and build up a data base of genuine badges. Some of the information on the signs of copies, although provided with genuine intent, may be hand me down by word of mouth based from years ago on little more than an opinion, and of course from those handling true fakes with the same differences. The tragedy is there are so many fakes about - some of which may have been copied from genuine badges without the gaunt plate. It would be a real find if we could ascertain the names of other manufacturers of RND badges.

Have a wonderful Christmas - currently 42C down here but forcast for 26C on Christmas day

Cheers
Chris

[Paddy]

Chris

Many thanks for posting the pics of your badges, always nice to see variations of RND badges and I believe it can only help the discerning RND collector in making an educated guess in what is right and what is wrong in a field that is more devoid of concrete answers than others.

As usual with RND badges, more pictures usually lead to more questions

Looking at the pictures of your badges I would say that there is a possibility (IMHO) that they could have been made by up to 4 different manufacturers.

The obvious one to start with is the maker marked Anson badge which has all the characteristics I would look for in a Gaunt Anson badge. (1 known manufacturer)

Of the other badges all with the exception of the Hawke have standard wire lugs/loops, the Hawke having flat metal lugs/loops, does this imply that the Hawke was made by a different manufacturer as it would be unusual for a manufacturer (IMHO) to use different styles of lugs/loops for badges for different Bns that were all worn in similar styles of headgear? (a possible 2nd manufacturer?)

Looking at the Howe badge it appears to be die cast while the other badges all appear to be die stamped (is it die cast or is it also die stamped?). If it is die cast then again this implies possibly another manufacturer as it would be unusual (IMHO) for a manufacturer to use different stamping/casting techniques for different Bns. (a possible 3rd manufacturer?)

Of the other badges (Nelson, Hood, Drake), they are not Gaunt marked (which isn't an issue) but they have round wire lugs/loops (not flat metal like the Hawke) and are die stamped (not die cast like the Howe) which could imply a 4th manufacturer.

I have always believed that Gaunt was not the only RND manufacturer, I have a Nelson badge like yours which I have held on to as it is well made and I feel it is more likely to be right than wrong and I have a Firmin marked Officers bronze badge.

As I said earlier, it is very nice to see your badges and unfortunately there are always more questions than answers on this subject as there are always hand me down anecdotes and assumptions. My questions above are not meant to question the authenticity of your badges, they are intended to hopefully stimulate debate or elicit answers from other forum members who have greater knowledge in badge manufacturing techniques who may be able to clear some of the usual RND fog.

Too late to wish you a Merry Christmas but just in time to wish you a Happy New Year.

Paddy

[Chrisr]

G'Day Paddy,

And a happy New Year to you.

Many thanks for your observations - very interesting.

I agree we should be stimulating debate on the RND badges, as I believe some of the hand me down anecdotes and assumpstions on what differences distinguish copies from genuine badges may be incorrect, sadly leading to good badges being discarded. If we could generate more discussion it might lead us to identifying further good badges from the different manufacturers. The logic of your arguement makes sense to me, and I very much appreciate your comments.

I am in Adelaide at the moment, so I don't have access to the badges to answer your query about the Howe badge (die stamped or die cast). What should I be looking for to tell the difference?

Best wishes
Chris

[Paddy]

Chris

Happy New Year and hope you had a warmer Christmas than we had here.

Apologies for the delay in replying but I have only been snatching a few minutes here and there on the forum.

I have been hunting around to see if I could find a better definition of Die Casting & Die Striking rather than try to describe it in my own words. I found the thread on this forum at the link below and it gives some very useful info on what to look for. The 3 basic things to look for are that die castings are usually thicker, have less detail on the rear of the badge and are quite often smaller than die struck badges due to shrinkage as the metal cools down. For info my Howe badge is 40mm at it's widest point (across the very top) and 33mm at it's tallest point (bottom of Howe scroll and top of mast on the centre ship).

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=21240

A little less debate stimulation than hoped for but unfortunately that tends to be the way with RND badges.

Paddy

[Alan O]

One for contemplation - straight N version but with a Gaunt plate.

http://www.clanfieldmilitaria.com/vi...h=56362&phqu=2

[Paddy]

Alan

I saw it the other day when it first went up, definitely quite a few differences from the standard Gaunt badge you find, the main thing that put me off is the Gaunt plate on the back, to me it's just too neat and tidy, whether it's been added to the badge long after manufacture is another matter to contemplate.

Paddy

[MEDALMAN]

for whats its worth

i purchased a nice Anson btn badge direct from the late recipients family along with his medals only last week.

it has no gaunts plate but was brooched to the reverse and showed signs of several years of polishing

as the brooch was broken it has gone off to be repaired

however i will post some pictures when i get it back

100% genuine in my opinion

cheers
Andrew