RMF badge with thin slider

[cbuehler]

Recently obtained this fine RMF badge with the smallest and narrow slider I have ever seen. The badge is in the center flanked by another RMF to the right and a Northumberland Fus. to the left for reference to more commonly seen sizes of sliders.

CB

The dimensions of the slider are not a key to genuine or fake. I recently acquired an all brass DLI with a very slender slider, clearly made in India with exceptional depth of strike - totally genuine. Sometimes it is a good idea to check a regiment's deployment just before and after WW1. Many regiments, like the DLI spent years on foreign service, especially in India and many of their badges and other accoutrements were made there. This is not to be confused with the cast badges we all know and love. Things like slider dimensions were never as regulated or prescribed on foreign service and thin sliders are a regular feature of Indian made badges. If you check out the RMF deployment 1919-1922 there may well be an explanation. Regards. David

[Mike]

2nd Battalion Egypt and the Sudan 1919-22

Thanks Mike - Maybe your information goes somewhere towards illustrating the point made in my previous post. Regards. David

[Alan O]

I don't think that the badge is Indian made. The construction is a UK maker's style. If it was indian then I would expect the tiger to be held in place by 2 pins.

Alan

I suspect that Alan is right - the badge itself may well be UK made. My point was not that this badge was Indian made (neither Egypt nor the Sudan are in India) but that badge and accoutrement manufacturing - and repairs - would be carried out by native artisans, often to a higher standard than a UK factory. I am not stating that the badge or slider were native made, only that the slider might have been, if an explanation for an abnormal width is to be suggested. I express only opinions - never categorical facts. I am no expert but I have some expertise. Regards. David

[cbuehler]

Some interesting thoughts here. I am positive the badge in question is British manufacture ( 4 brazing holes etc.), as are the other badges for that matter.
Davids comments re the slider and originality is of course spot on. It is only one possible feature that may or may not determine a genuine badge.
I was never in doubt about this badge, only curious regarding the unusual slider.

CB

[lettman]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Recently obtained this fine RMF badge with the smallest and narrow slider I have ever seen. The badge is in the center flanked by another RMF to the right and a Northumberland Fus. to the left for reference to more commonly seen sizes of sliders.

CB

My Munsters badge has possibly a similar slider, but the one on my Leinsters is particularly long and slender, and unlike any others in my collection.

[cbuehler]

It has been said that early sliders are often long and slender. That seen on the Leinster's and many of my older badges would seem to bear this out.

CB

[Luke H]

CB,

There's nothing unusual about your RMF (which is very nice btw), genuine ones are commonly seen with very thin sliders as are a fair number of Leinsters. I have 3 of the former and two of the latter with identically thin sliders, can send you pictures if you're interested for later reference. Your badge is British made as are mine.

Luke

[cbuehler]

Thanks Luke,
I have other badges with quite small and thin sliders, but this one beats the others cold. The other RMF badge to the right has three braze holes and is quite nice as well with a more standard size slider.
Am I correct in that sliders such as these would not be seen on ww2 badges?

CB

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Thanks Luke,
I have other badges with quite small and thin sliders, but this one beats the others cold. The other RMF badge to the right has three braze holes and is quite nice as well with a more standard size slider.
Am I correct in that sliders such as these would not be seen on ww2 badges?

CB

CB,

Just for reference the sliders measure: W 4mm x 33mm L; W 4.9mm x 35mm L: 4.8mm x 36mm L. They all taper slightly, widths taken from the mid point. Yes you're right I doubt you'll see a WW2 badge with an original slider of such dimensions, I never have.

Dinky little sliders aren't they

Cheers,

Luke

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by lettman

My Munsters badge has possibly a similar slider, but the one on my Leinsters is particularly long and slender, and unlike any others in my collection.

I have been able to ascertain with some badge collector colleagues that several regiments had a special badge for their Coloured Field Service Caps (FSCs aka 'side hats'). Some regiments used a different design (e.g. NF - a modified collar badge) and some a smaller but standard pattern badge sometimes in a single metal (e.g. RWF). One feature common to several is either a thin or longer slider or sometimes both. Ergo, I believe that the badges you are highlighting in this thread are FSC badges with thin sliders to fit into the FSC. There are just enough of them around to suggest that they are genuine but produced in small numbers for a short lived (e.g. Broderick), or optional (e.g. FSC) head dress. The latter was often worn with a dark blue uniform that seems to have originated as a cycling dress (see centre man of 3 with FSC clutched in hands) when 'walking out' (please excuse the contradiction in terms).

[Toby Purcell]

Another example of the uniform, sadly you cannot quite see the badge.

[KLR]

Toby, just to clarify, the first 'cap' badges for the FSC specifically had loops. these were discontinued at home in 1903 on the introduction of the Brodrick. (they continued to be worn in India and their badges continued to have loops up to 1914 - described as Indian Pattern badges in CR, and defined in ACD records).
A 'vertical shank' (ie what we now call a slider) was specifically introduced for badges worn on the Brodrick, this was long - about 60mm, because the badge was worn higher up than on the band. the slider was the same length as that found on HPCs for wear with the Universal Headdress Hat (aka slouch hat) and for which a special holder was issued - but I'm digressing.
In 1906 the WO issued instructions that the vertical shank be shortened so that their badges could be worn on the new (peaked) service cap. From this date they were 30 to 40mm (though see below)

You mentioned collar badges worn in the FSC - this is indeed what happened when the FSC was first introduced and before specific 'cap' badges were designed - this issue is dealt with in detail in
Linaker, DDA, 2004, ‘Field [Service] Cap Badges’, Crown Imperial, 113, 27-29.

In many cases the ACD sealed 'collar' badges separately as a 'cap' badge only to be superseded by a new sealing for a 'cap' badge. Thus the first King's Regt badge sealed for wear in the FSC was pattern 4362/1895 which was in fact the horse on scroll collar badge - next year a new 'cap' design was sealed as 4362A/1896 and is the type worn up to 1926.
There are countless similar examples in the ACD records - often accompanied by rubbings.
(there are other complications but I wont' go into those now !)

On the separate issue of slider lengths, I have noted that for the 1926 pattern King's (ie 10042/1926) there are some very long ones - ie about 45mm and, interestingly, often made of copper rather than GM. Actually, I have also seen these on the 11390/1939 pattern 8th Irish Bn King's WM badge.
Most of these badges however have a slider measuring an average of 37mm.

Incidentally, I always measure sliders as full length from 'shoulder' and as the length it projects below the base of the badge - eg 43/17 as below (the cr = crimped)

- The White Horse of Hanover rearing on a torse with alternate twists , in white metal. Below, a scroll inscribed KING’S in ‘Old English’ letters, in gilding metal. Straight hind legs, long tail, £££, plain back, slt curved, slider cr 43/17, 47x44.

but then, that's me being a fanatic as to how I catalogue my collection. My day job is in a museum so I'm used to cataloguing things in great detail - it's the only way to discuss differences, trends, etc etc (though usually on objects much older than cap badges !)
Julian