Sigs collars

[Mike]

Hi Chaps

Enamel Canadian Corps of Signals Collars

were these in facing pairs? ie flags reversed

Mazeas does not show this but we have some plain brass ones that have the flag reversed?

simulated options from a single collar:







does that beaver need reversed?

[Mike]

[Mike]

beaver changed direction

valid pair?

[Joe C]

Mike,

There are matching (facing) collars for the CCS sigs version. The beavers face in and the blue/while flag is at the beavers tail. You have the flags backwards in your latest pic. I don't have a pair myself (if anyone has a set to spare I'll take them....) but a matched set is on display in the Sigs Museum in Kingston.

[Mike]

Hi Joe, thanks for that, got a bit lost there.

got it now.

[Phillip Herring]

Mike,
Oops. Didn't read the whole thread.
Phil

[Joe C]

That's it Mike. Good editing skills. Now, if it were only as easy to get badges in real life!!! :-)

[LLWill]

I think I have posted these collars in the badge collection.
Joe! I'll hold up the pairs I have and wave them in your direction

Larry

[DavidS]

Maybe a silly question, but why would/should the flags reverse on facing collars? I can see the beaver getting reversed, like in the Mazeas S4 and S4a illustrations but the flags, I presume, are alphabetic/naval style signal flags so if they were reversed the "message" would reverse too, n'est ce pas -- the equivalent of the Victoria Rifles, say, having "VRC/CRV" facing collars?

Lots of examples that they do on this site, RCCS KC and QC collars both, but I don't get it.

Another question is, what do the flags stand for? Closest naval/alphabetic letter flag for either is small blue square surrounded by white, "S", and blue/white/red/white/blue stripes, "C", neither of which match these enamel flags as described and shown.

As for Mazeas's S4a collars, the right hand flag is engraved with either 4 or 7 bars, depending on how you count them, which don't correspond to the authorized 3-bar flag. So how many of these versions (S4a, reversed flags, etc.) would actually be manufactured and issued screw-ups of the authorized Signals Corps pattern?

[Joe C]

David,

To answer part of your question, the flags have no alphabetic or other such significance. The signal flags were used in pairs, one in each hand, of a signaller and it is the position of the flags that conveyed meaning. When used it was either two all blue or two white/blue flags and the two were never mixed. Why two types? The all blue ones were for use on a lighter background (hillside or sky for example) and the white/blue ones were for a darker background (poorer light or trees for example) in order to provide good contrast for the receiver. The USA signal flags are the same idea except theirs are white with a red centre square or red with a white centre square. The Naval semaphore flags are a red/yellow angular split and only come in one type.

So, as each flag is a standalone heraldic device with no dependency on the other then they are reversed along with the beaver. The CCS letters are of course not reversed.

I don't have my copy of Mazeas in front of me but perhaps it's just the way the line drawing was made. I have not seen any examples of 'error' variant collar badges such as you asked about.

[DavidS]

Thanks, Joe, I am much more enlightened than I was. I was all over the place looking for a flag explanation and you think I could find one?

My question about 'official screw-ups' was based on the assumption that the flag order mattered, and that Mazeas was accurate -- both bad assumptions. Going back though the Signals site linked prev., I see all the RCCS collars had "complimentary pairs" so Maz.'s S4a collar illustrations should have reverse flags as well as reversed beaver, and the bars on the striped flag are inaccurate (not the first time Daniel couldn't draw). For S4 CCS collars, it seems the count is about 1/3-2/3 for non-complimentary vs complimentary pairs. More for our 'fix Mazeas" list.

[Joe C]

David,

The website you referred to is one I run. You are right that all RCCS collars had "complimentary pairs", CCS ones as well at least by the end of their use. CSC collars didn't come in "complimentary pairs" and it is unclear to me when exactly the cut over was. ie concurrent with the introduction of new badges (likely) or at some later time.

It is documented during WWI that there was an unwillingness to fix errors in the badges, specifically the spelling mistake in the motto of the small CSC Cap badge (or large collar, depends on your perspective) ("VERSUTOS" should correctly read as "VERSUTUS") until the post war disposition of Signals was determined. It was clear that things would change, just not to what so they held off. My site has a placeholder for a correctly spelt badge I heard about anecdotally but based on more recent archival research I don't believe one exists.