Royal Naval Engine Room Artificer badge

[alco]

Hi,
Many thanks for your precisions.
seems that we all have the same source ...

It is not easy to follow the badges descriptions in May's :
CPO and ERA badges are described on page 27 and page 108 ;
what I understand is that 1920 was the year of great changes :
- new badge for CPO
- center jewel of crown change from red to blue (not mentionned in May's)
- end of lettered badges for Reserves

but 1918 was the end of the civilian distinctions : << in 1918 the gold and silver badge was adopted by ALL BRANCHES >>
so after 1918, no more purple B/G !?!

However, we found from time to time badges non matching with this scheme ???
DSCN4487.jpg
Like this one with purple B/G + silver anchor and blue jewel !!!

It could be helpfull to reach the official regulations of 1924 and 1913.
This is an appeal to all library rats ...........

for my side, I have only the 1937 regulation and here is no word about coloured B/G ...

... / ...

[royston]

Until the early 1960s the Red "tiffs" badge was worn by Writers etc It is of note that during the First World War, many men wore the red cap badge. such as Royal Naval Air Service ratings, RNR Armed Trawlers, Royal Naval Motor Boat Reserve, RNV Ratings etc. Although RNR ratings had the addition of RNR on the badge and likewise RNMBR and RNV (Sometimes RNVR).

[alco]

... / ...

for blue background examples, see this post :
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=13408

with some pics of such badges ;
and also the recent discover of Bryan presented in :
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=15900


These badges should be described in one regulation ... but which ?


Alco

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Hi Steve
I've never seen this before, but the crown on the badge looks Victorian, which would tie in with when engine-room artificers were introduced in the RN. I 'googled' the motto 'Tubal Cain' and got lots of hits about the 'secret password of a freemason'. Apparently freemasonry was quite strong in the RN.
Cheers,
Alex

I haven't followed this thread right down but as we all know from the Bible, Tubal Cain 'was the first artificer'. In my time in the RN as a tiffy, the title 'Tubal Cain' was occasionally used as a friendly, if disparaging, description of an 'older ERA'.

[54Bty]

For interest to the thread.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Royal-Engine.../dp/B003B2NULK

Marc

[royston]

The cap badges, shown by "Alco", which have an all gold crown, a gold anchor and a purple background are in fact Engineroom Chief Petty Officer cap badges pre 1918. Note CPOs did not have laurel leaves around the anchor until 1920, when Confirmed Petty Officer's wore the a badge without laurel leaves and CPO's with laurel leaves. The red cap badge was worn by Petty Officer's and below if wearing the "fore and aft rig" and not of the Seaman (executive) branch.

Red cap badges were still being worn by Artificer's and Miscellaneous ratings, not dressed as seamen, writers,stores etc, ito the early 60s and continued to be worn by Tiffies until the demise of the Tiffy structure.


John

[Bagsy Baker]

Alex The main works of the badge have been adopted from the Royal Naval Benevolent Trust founded in 1872 The Engimeroom Artificers Club I think adopted that for their own Design At one time large Clubs existed in Portsmouth Malta and hong Kong what became of these assets woud take some lengthy research no doubt

Tubal Cain is regarded as the First "ARTIFICER" and the word is as translated as
"A worker of semi precious Metals"

Until 1903 Naval engineers were recruited from Civilian life then Admiral " Jackie " Fisher had the navy begin Schools for training their own Apprentices

[Bagsy Baker]

To all from Memory
Firstly there were NO Trade/Branch Badges used by Artificers only their Officers had Branch recognition cloth between their rings or under as in the case of Sub Lt or less

Artificer apprentices had a Rank badge of their own during the 4 years and those given responsibility either had a star on the left arm 9 Leading Apprentice Or a Chevron with Star inset, P.O.Apprentice. CPO Apprentice was chevron with star on each sleeve and One was appointed for each Division Plus One who was Designated Chief of the School

The BIG change came in 1956 at the Instigation of Lord Louis Mountbatten Admiral of the Fleet and 1st Sea Lord

Prior to 1956 Artificer apprentices and Leading Artificers/5th class wore Black Horn buttons on their number one dress and caps changed from Black to White on the 1st May and back to Black on the 1st October every year as did all seamen
White cap covers could be worn for MARRIAGE only during the Winter months, Highly unlikely for Artificers who could not marry Under training as we were not allowed to reside ashore plus we had time restrictons on our movements I.E for all classes below The top 2, Saturdays until 2359 and Sundays til 2359 + Wednesdays after 5pm-2359 and anyway could not get marriage allowances until the age of 21 making it Nigh impossible to afford to

In 1956 an AFO was issued (Admiralty Fleet Order) changing the Rig of many in the service. Artificer Apprentices were now Given the priviledge of wearing Gold Buttons ( I believe a return to the State we once enjoyed before Lady Asquith intervened in the 1920's ) on their Number 1 dress suits and 5th class ( Leading rates ) had a small cuff button added POs had 2 Cuff buttons and all headwear was kept white at the winter change over. Officers ceased to have Branch colours between the rings and the Ranks of Commissioned Branch Offficer ( Thin Ring) and Senior Commissioned Branch Officer (Thick Ring) were abolished. Both these Ranks were not Addressed as Sir by the way and were always called Mr .......

So members one can see much of the Mystique of Artificers is only KNOWN from usuage amongst those who WERE

Attached is my blazer badge from 1955 purchased from the NAFFI and discontinued after that year plus a Picture of H.M.S. Caledonia's Pipe Band Note the Badge was prominent on the Drum Majors SASH All members of the Band wore a Set of Gold Bagpipes on the right sleeve bottom.Blazerbadge1955008a.jpg

pipeband1956004.jpg

[Bagsy Baker]

To all,

Ive just copied from the first edition (1917) of "Wonder Book of the Navy" the Rank descriptions plate and Identification sript page

There was also a Picture by Cribb of Southsea showing the Dress of ERA's at that time and Ive added a small section form this.

Another anomily took place in 1955 when the Apprentices of H.M.S.Caledonia provided a Royal Guard for HM's departure on the Royal Yacht to go and vist King Haakon? of Norway on a Royal visit. We were the largest body of manpower available in the area.
Panic took place amongst the Executive branches and special Chief Gunners were dispatched from Whale Island to train the Guard and the rest of us in How to line the passage of HM thro the dockyard.
To this day it is the ONLY non coventional Naval guard the Queen has ever had to inspect in Her Honour

wonders004a.jpg

wonders005a.jpg

era1917.jpg

rosyth_royal_guard_55_1.jpg

[RCN]

Following up on Bagsy's photo of ERA's by Cribb....

below is a part of a larger photo I have of the ERA's & Stokers of HMS Asia circa 1890...

RCN Bryan

[Ancient_Mariner]

I bought three RN Artificer badges and the blazer badge on ebay recently.

I have been advised that the oval one of the three is part of a blazer badge - note that it has Royal Naval rather than Royal Navy and that the red Crown is a Royal Marine Colour Sargent badge, worn on the sleeve of the dress uniform, oh!

But what about the shoulder flash(?) Tubal Cain?

Was it an official badge? Or what?

They all look and feel old, not recently produced.

Many thanks.

Clive
ex Merchant Navy Radio & Electronics Officer

[royston]

Tubal-cain or Tubalcain is a person mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis 4:22, known for being the first blacksmith. He is stated as the "forger of all instruments of bronze and iron". Hence the Artificer's use his name as a motto. However, I have never seen a shoulder flash with the title.

[mike_vee]

Possibly connected to the RNEBS (Royal Naval Engineers' Benevolent Society) , the badge is shown on their website.

https://www.rnebs.co.uk/

.