OTC CORRECTIONS TO KIPLING AND KING VOL 2

[Alan O]

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=76714K&K Vol 2 shows examples of a selection of Cadet badges. One weakness is its failure to differentiate between School OTC badges (although the Chapter is entitled OTCs), School Cadet Corps badges, military schools, regional Cadet Corps and post WW2 CCF badges.

KK 2497 Adam's Grammar School Newport, Shropshire. A CCF badge founded in 1951.
K&K 2498 K&K omit the brass OTC badge for Aldenham School. The w/m version was worn post war by the School's CCF.
KK2504 Bancroft School - CCF badge and not an OTC
KK 2514 Bridlington School OTC. The OTC badge is shown and is recorded in use in 1938. The other versions are described. One is the OTC badge with the OTC scroll cut off - presumably from the post 1940 JTC era and the third is a CCF badge which was still in use c.2012.
K&K 2520 Blundell’s School The OTC wore a bronzed Devon’s badge. The S/P Squirrel[/URL] is post-war CCF from the 1970s onwards.
Campbell College - The chrome boars head is post war CCF and also worn by the School Pipe Band.
K&K 2523 Chard School. Not an OTC. Affiliated to 5 SLI in 1922 as a cadet coy. The school had a ACF post WW2 and was badged to RA.
K&K 2533. Dartford Grammar School. The CCF badge is shown. The OTC wore a white horse similar to the WKY.
K&K 2541 Downside School - The gun metal badge was worn by the CCF.
K&K 2452/3 Duke of York’s. A military school Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2549 Elizabeth College - The bugle OTC badge was in use in 1937. The coat of arms badge in K&K was post war CCF.
K&K 2560 George Watson's College hat badge was K&K2559. 2560 is a misidentified sporran badge.
K&K 2564 Glasgow High School - Misidentified Glasgow Corporation badge. The OTC wore K&K 2563 as a bonnet badge. Later on used as a sporran badge when the OTC wore the Cameronians bonnet badge.
K&K 2565. Gordon’s Boys School. A military school Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2571, Harrow County School - Formed up as an ACF in 1947 then a CCF.
K&K 2576/7 Hulme Grammar School - It is the Manchester school. K&K show the cadet corps badge and not the OTC version. HGS Oldham was a ATC/CCF. The single lion badge is not an OTC badge at all.
K&K 2586. Misidentified as King Charles I School Kidderminster Cadet Corps. It is King Edward VI Grammar School Chelmsford CCF.
K&K 2588. KE Five Ways’ School. A Cadet Corps and not an OTC. The badge shown is a CCF one as the Cadet Corps wore Warwickshire regt. The CCF badge was still in use in the 1980s.
K&K 2590 King Edwards VI Grammar School Lichfield A Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2599 King's School Peterborough. A Cadet Corps/ ACF platoon and not an OTC.
K&K 2610 Lord William's School Thane. Thame Grammar School Cadet Corps and not an OTC. Ran from 1915-31. CCF was raised in 1949 and wore GS cap badge in the 60's and RAOC cap badges in the 70's they were affiliated to Bicester..
K&K 2629 Mercers school cadet corps founded in 1914. The school closed in 1958.
K&K 2623. Millfield School. Post war CCF not an OTC/CC.
K&K 2624. Mill Hill School. The blackened 1st pattern badge has a different central design.
K&K 2626. Monmouth School - The dragon badge of the same design as the post WW2 Monmouth TA regt is post OTC era. Worn by the CCF from 1968.
K&K 2629. Morgan Academy. A CCF badge is shown. A preceding cadet corps was affiliated to the local Rifle Volunteers.
K&K 2630 Morrisons academy large badge was worn on the glengarry.
K&K 2631 Morrisons academy CCF smaller badge was worn on Balmoral bonnets with a CCF version post WW2.
K&K 2632 Moseley Grammar School. Not OTC but CC.
K&K 2640 Paston's Grammar School Norfolk - A Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2643 Portmouth Northern Grammar. A CCF and not an OTC. A Chrome badge also exists.
K&K 2644 Portsmouth Southern Grammar. A CCF and not an OTC.
K&K 2645 Price's School. A post war CCF badge worn 1955-75. The Cadet Corps predecessor wore the Hampshire badge and then the 6th Hants as an RA unit.
K&K 2646 Queen Mary's Grammar School Basingstoke. Not an OTC and as part of Hants County cadets the school wore Hants badges:
so not a badge worn by the school but possibly worn by all Hants cadets 1930-2?
K&K 2647 Queen Victoria School Dunblane. A military school Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2532 Duke of York's Royal Military School. GVth version exists. A military school Cadet Corps and not an OTC.
K&K 2660 Royal Liberty School - CCF badge.
K&K 2661 Royal Wantage School. Typo - Royal Wanstead School CCF. The Wanstead Infant Orphan Asylum changed its name to Royal Wanstead School in 1938. RWS did have a Cadet Corps but no OTC.
St Benedicts School, Ealing - CCF badge.
K&K 2665 St Brendan's College Bristol - CCF began in 1951. No OTC. There was a CC from 1943-5 which wore the RTR and the Glosters badges.
K&K 2672/3 St Ignatius. A CCF did exist but not an OTC. The school did not have a JTC.
K&K 2677. St Peter's School York. This is the second pattern badge form the 1930's. The first pattern is crownless and mentioned but not shown.
K&K 2675. Misidentified. It is St Walter St Johns Battersea Grammar School Cadet Corps. There were 2 versions of this badge which had minor differences to the designs upon the central shield.
K&K 2680. Sevenoaks. Post WW2 CCF badge first used in 1956.
Shaftsbury Grammar School. Cadet Corps and later as a CCF they wore the Dorsetshire's badge.
K&K 2695. University College School. The OTC wore the w/m Artists’ Rifles cap badge. The badge shown is pre 1908 Cadet Corps - possibly pouch or HPC.
K&K 2700 Wrongly titled as Royal Wanstead School. It is Wanstead County High School. They had a CCF not an OTC.
K&K 2703. Welbeck College. Post WW2 military school CCF badge and not an OTC.
K&L 2706 Wellington College Salop. The single lion is a Denbighshire Police badge with the torse removed.
K&K 2713 Wilson's Grammar School. Scrolless version is the CCF badge. Also found with right facing horse suggesting that they were originally collars.
K&K 2715 Winchester School - The OTC version was the Bronzed version. The GM is likely to be post war CCF.
K&K 2715 Windsor GS CCF - Mistaken ID (of a livery badge?) as the School Cadet Corps and later the CCF wore the Berkshire Regt cap badge.


Absent are:

Haileybury School Junior Cadets
Handsworth GS
Oakham School OTC first pattern cap badge 1910-29.
Royal Naval School Eltham which closed in 1910.
Bradford Grammar School
Rydal School
St Andrew's College, Dublin Closed 1922.
St Edward's Oxford 1st and 2nd pattern cap badges.
Wolverhamton OTC - shield type
These School OTCs wore standard regular/TF badges rather than a school badge. This was either because they replaced School designs or continued to use designs used by their Cadet Corps predecessors. This list only goes up to 1938 so not JTC/CCF eras.

Ardrossan Academy OTC - Royal Artillery TF.
Bath - Wore the 1st Bn Somerset Light Infantry badge having been previously badged to the 1st VB SLI.
Bedford Grammar School OTC - RE
Bedford Modern School OTC - Beds/ Beds and Herts. School collars were worn.
Bishop's Stortford School OTC - Herts Regt badge. 1906-08 Cadet Coy in the Herts RV and Herts TF from 1911 onwards.
Bishop Vesey's School - Royal Warwickshire's badge.
Blundell's School - Bronzed brass TF Devonshire's badge. Blundell's CCF had a S/P bespoke design.
Bromsgrove School OTC Initially school badge but latterly adopted the Worcs badge
Christ College Brecon OTC - Reformed as a Junior OTC in 1937 - South Wales Borderers.
Coatham School OTC - Green Howards.
Dartford Grammar School OTC - West Kent Yeomanry design.
David Stewart's College OTC - Royal Scots.
Dorchester Grammar School - Initially a Dorchester OTC design until at least 1938 but later adopted the Dorsetshire Regt's badge circa 1940.
Durham School OTC - TF Durham Light Infantry in blackened brass.
Elstow School - Closed in 1916. S/T exists but no cap badge is known. The school was previously Bedford County School so possibly Bedfords' badge.
Glasgow Academy - Highland Light Infantry
Glasgow High School - Cameronians. The original OTC cap badge was similiar/same as the sporran badge.
Grimsby Municpal College OTC - School badge and then adopted the Lincolnshire Regt badge.
Handsworth Grammar School - Staffordshire Yeomanry badge but it is not 100% whether brass or nickel (or both) were worn. Replaced by the SStaffs badge in WW2 and then RWarcs when a CCF.
Highgate School OTC - Middlesex Regt.
Hillhead High School - HLI cap badge.
King's College Taunton OTC - Somerset LI. Possibly at first with blank scroll.
King Edward VII (Sheffield) - Royal Engineers until a school badge was adopted in the 1920s. Disbanded in 1927.
King's School Bruton OTC - adopted the Dorsetshire's badge.
King's School (Worcester) OTCs Initially school badge based on 1st Worcs design but latterly adopted the Worcs badge.
Leeds' Grammar School OTC - Initially school sheep design badge but adopted the Duke of Wellington's badge from 1922.
Liverpool Collegiate OTC - South Lancashire Regt.
Liverpool Institute OTC - Kings Liverpool in w/m as TF Bn.
Llandovery College OTC - South Wales Borderers.
Malvern College OTC adopted the Worcs badge
Mansfield School Queen Elizabeth's - Formerly affiliated to Notts and Derby VB from 1906 before becoming an OTC in 1908. No bespoke cap badge is known but a OTC S/T exists.
Merchant Taylors School - Company arms
Merchant Taylors' School (Great Crosby) Rifles - 6th Bn Kings Regt.
Newton College OTC - Devonshire's badge.
Peter Symonds School OTC - Hampshire Regt. They had formerly been a Cadet Corps Coy in the Hants TF.
Plymouth College OTC - As the PofW feathers as worn by the 15th Bn London Regt.
Portora School - Royal Inniskillings Regt from their founding in 1929.
Queen Mary's Grammar School Walsall- Cadets wore South Staffs' cap badges.
Royal Grammar School High Wycombe - Buckinghamshire Bn cap badge with School S/T.
Royal High School Edinburgh OTC - Royal Scots.
Sebright School OTC - Wore the Worcestershire regt badge.
Sherborne School OTC -Adopted the Dorsetshire's badge. This was in use in the 1920s.
Sidcup Hall School OTC - Royal West Kent
St Alban's School - Hertfordshire TF Regt.
West Buckland OTC - Devonshire Regt
Whitgift OTC - Initially school badge but latterly adopted the Queen's West Surrey badge.

[dubaiguy]

Here is a Wrekin lion for comparison.

In 1942 the Belgian Government in exile in London agreed that it was necessary, once Belgium would be liberated, to rebuild a nucleus of a new Army, well trained, ready for battle and the eventual occupation of Germany. When the first elements of the 2nd Infantry Brigade arrived in Northern Ireland for training from January 1945 on, a shortage of Belgian rampant lions for the beret occured. A British headgear badge was found, the lower part (scroll?) was cut off , and the remaining lion was worn as the "Belgian Lion" on the beret. Possibly this was also done with the collar badges.

This source may refer to the Wrekin badge scroll or the torse from the livery badge. The badge in K&K is not OTC but the livery badge.

[Alan O]

This is Downside OTC just before WW1. The brass shield cap badges are clear. This is the badge in use in 1938. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=70689 according to EJ Martin's records of that year.

The Kings Crown gun-metal brass badge post dates the OTC and is used by the CCF.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by dubaiguy

Here is a Wrekin lion for comparison.

In 1942 the Belgian Government in exile in London agreed that it was necessary, once Belgium would be liberated, to rebuild a nucleus of a new Army, well trained, ready for battle and the eventual occupation of Germany. When the first elements of the 2nd Infantry Brigade arrived in Northern Ireland for training from January 1945 on, a shortage of Belgian rampant lions for the beret occured. A British headgear bdage was found, the lower part (scroll?) was cut off , and the remaining lion was worn as the "Belgian Lion" on the beret. Possibly this was also done with the collar badges.

I think this was the badge they turned in to a Belgian cap badge.

This is the 1908 Wellington College badge which was worn until the school produced new badges with the Wrekin title after the school's renaming in 1921. EJ Martin records that this scrolled badge was in use in 1938. There is a very clear picture of this in a 1935 film

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/...ge-1935-online


I am afraid the third badge that Hugh King shows is not an OTC badge. It is not the Wrekin lion.

The foot has a flat edge from where the torse has been snipped off and the pointed tuft of chest mane is not found on Wrekin badges.

Afternote: Dave has identified it a Denbigh police https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...1&d=1694771567

[Alan O]

Further research has proved that both Portsmouth Northern and Southern Grammar School badges date from post 1947.

The schools both adopted these names in 1947, before 1947 they were Secondary Schools, so the Northern Grammar School badge cannot predate 1947. The design of the un-named Southern Grammar School badge was first drawn in 1947 by the school's art master and incorporates a phoenix which represents the school's buildings destruction in WW2. As such this badge coincides the formation of the CCF and cannot be an OTC badge. PSGS did have a Cadet Corps but not an OTC.

These badges should not be confused with the Portsmouth Grammar school who did adopt their own badge in 1908, wore it throughout the 1950's and 60s' ( http://www.pgs.org.uk/wp-content/upl...-c-1965001.jpg ) as a CCF and still wear it today. The current badges are Firmin marked.

[manchesters]

This may fit in your work Alan, re Hulme Grammar School OTC. When badges to this OTC turn up they are usually described as Hulme Grammar School, Oldham. That is NOT true. They belong to Hulme Grammar School, Manchester, a different school, but founded by the same person William Hulme. I have been in correspondance with Hulme Grammar School, Oldham and they didnt have an OTC. They did have a CCF which first began on 11.2.1941 as 601 (The Hulme Grammar School Oldham) Squadron, ATC.
On 1.9.1948 O.H.G.S. CCF replaced this unit and it was affiliated to the local T.A. Battalion, the 41st Royal Tank Regiment (T.A.), which was formally the 10th Bn. The Manchester Regiment prior to WW2. The Cadets wore the black beret and RTR cap badge.


I have 4 versions of the Hulme Grammar School badge.

The first is the all WM lions head (K&K 2576)

The second is the GM demi-lion and scrolls with H.G.S and Cadet Corps thereon (K&K 2577)

The 3rd is a GM demi-lion and scrolls as above but with H.G.S. and O.T.C. theron.

My 4th is just a Bz OSD badge of the second version

K& K also perpetuate the myth that this is in Oldham.

[Alan O]

Price's Grammar School Fareham CCF K&K 2645 wore the lion badge with school founding dates as shown in the photo linked to below. The School did not have an OTC.
The Cadet Corps orginally wore the 6th Hampshires cap badge: From the CCF website: 'A dark blue beret bore various cap badges: the 6th Hampshire Regt. (Duke of Connaught’s Own) until 1938, followed by a Royal Artillery badge until 1945, then the Royal Hampshire Regt 1945-55 at which time the Price’s Lion cap badge was introduced.'
The lion cap badge is therefore a post-war CCF badge and dated to 1955 until the closure of the CCF circa 1975. http://www.societyofoldpriceans.co.uk/Prices_CCF.pdf

[Mike H]

Eddie said to me yesterday that Monmouth School were granted the right to wear the dragon badge in 1968 ,when the 2nd Monmouths disappeared.

[Alan O]

Paston School had a cadet corps and not an OTC. There is photgraphic evidence of it in the 1920s and it was later a CCF.

http://www.northwalshamarchive.co.uk...x?entry_id=265 http://www.northwalshamarchive.co.uk...x?entry_id=304

I am not sure that the 1920's photos show the school badge or that possibly the Norfolks looks to be a better match.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Eddie said to me yesterday that Monmouth School were granted the right to wear the dragon badge in 1968 ,when the 2nd Monmouths disappeared.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...-fnon1g-fnpybK

pre WW1 the school cadet corps were in slouch hats but the officers seem to have dragons on their caps.
The cadets seem to have a sphinx collar? on the side of the slouch.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...7633306387641/
In this one the cadets are again in slouch but the officer may well have a round badge of the SWB?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...-fnon1g-fnpybK

By 1917 the blue tunics and slouch hats have been replaced by khaki tunic and caps. !00% certain that they are wearing brass Monmouth dragons.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...7633390442990/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...7633306387641/

By the 1940s & 50s it appears that the Welch badge was in use.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/928277...57633306387641

To summarise we have photos of the Monmouth Regt's Dragon in use in WW1 as a cadet corps, the Welch Regt badge in the 1940s and then the 2nd Monmouths in use in the 1970s. One noticeable absence is the 'Serve and Obey' badge shown in K&K. It is a Haberdashers badge rather than Monmouth but is recorded by EJ Martin's work in 1938.

[Alan O]

K&K 2665 St Brendan's College is in Bristol. The CCF began in 1951. The school did have a Cadet Corps from 1943-45 who wore the Glosters and RTR cap badges.

http://www.sanctibrendani.co.uk/default.aspx

'1951
It is believed that this is the year the CCF began'

[Alan O]

At the moment there is no record of an OTC, only a CCF for this school. The cadet force was founded in 1930 but may have been a cadet corps rather than as an OTC proper:

Westlake does not show a OTC S/T.

[Alan O]

Northampton Grammar School was a member of the Junior Division OTC between 1925-35 and a Cadet Corps beforehand.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/...photo/78965576

06.02.14. Recognised by Northampton TFA as Northampton Grammar School Cadet Corps. Affiliated to 4 Bn, Northants Regt, TF.
31.10.25. Army Order 394: Recognition approved of Northampton School Contingent, OTC.
15.01.35. WO recommend closing of OTC on grounds of poor performance.
01.04.35. Northampton School OTC disbanded.
31.05.35. AO 104: Disbandment of Northampton School Contingent announced. Subsequently sale advertised of 150 uniforms & equipment.
Unit was reformed as ACF in 1942.

[Alan O]

[QUOTE=manchesters;266380]This may fit in your work Alan, re Hulme Grammar School OTC. When badges to this OTC turn up they are usually described as Hulme Grammar School, Oldham. That is NOT true. They belong to Hulme Grammar School, Manchester, a different school, but founded by the same person William Hulme. I have been in correspondance with Hulme Grammar School, Oldham and they didnt have an OTC. They did have a CCF which first began on 11.2.1941 as 601 (The Hulme Grammar School Oldham) Squadron, ATC.
On 1.9.1948 O.H.G.S. CCF replaced this unit and it was affiliated to the local T.A. Battalion, the 41st Royal Tank Regiment (T.A.), which was formally the 10th Bn. The Manchester Regiment prior to WW2. The Cadets wore the black beret and RTR cap badge.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0corps&f=false

As I like to evidence things, page 13 in this book confirms that Hulme Manchester had the OTC for senior boys and a cadet Corps for younger boys.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by manchesters

I have 4 versions of the Hulme Grammar School badge.

The first is the all WM lions head (K&K 2576)

The second is the GM demi-lion and scrolls with H.G.S and Cadet Corps thereon (K&K 2577)

The 3rd is a GM demi-lion and scrolls as above but with H.G.S. and O.T.C. theron.

My 4th is just a Bz OSD badge of the second version

K& K also perpetuate the myth that this is in Oldham.

Just re-looking at this one. I have a theory (unsubstantiated) that K&K not only has the wrong school named but has the wrong sequence. I suspect that the order of use should be:

- Hulme Lion with cadet corps - worn from the cadet corps' founding in 1915.
- Then the OTC badge/s (K&K 2577) and the HGS/OTC version
- Then the single lion head nothing to do with the school cadets.

Thoughts?

Having gone through old copies of the School Magazine I have found an article in the 1938 edition that states that Hulme's Cadet Corps was elevated to OTC status in 1935.

The 1935 date is also here https://www.whgs-academy.org/Portals...BLQ20Heg%3D%3D