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  #16  
Old 09-06-19, 12:40 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Many thanks for your efforts Mike,
and yes its a starting point.
All the best
James
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  #17  
Old 09-06-19, 08:49 PM
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Hi

Just a quick reply and will add some more later. I am fairly certain that Bay made those NZCC badges. He also made the large RSA badge from 1918 to 1927. This is marked "C......B" and the RD number ("RD 861" - this number works out to around 1916).

The small "triple fern" badges have tiny letters "C.B" and "1914" if they've not been overpolished! These sometimes turn up in white metal, bronze and brass.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-19, 02:28 AM
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Hi

Been mulling over this question and I think that while the designs may have been registered to a particular jeweller, C. M. Bay (Cecil Montagu BAY) would have produced the dies for them.

Bay made an awful lot of the Reinforcement badges that we still see today. I was once told by someone who knew him well that, many years after the end of the war, Cecil Bay would take his small boat over to the place he had in the Marlborough Sounds (South Island) and drop kerosene tins full of badges over the side of the boat.....

The same guy told me that he preferred to hire women for the job of cutting out the design as they were more careful than the men who would cheerfully chop off the tips of fernleaves on a design, thereby ruining the badge.

Maybe they were also cheaper to employ?
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  #19  
Old 10-06-19, 09:02 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Further to the C M Bay query, Its extremely rare to see any maker marks other than RD numbers to Reio badges.
Attached is a 19th Collar, which has a maker mark, but I can't figure it out as its so faint and also with age, my eye's aren't what they used to be (even with glass and a magnifying glass!!!!)...:-).... It has no RD number to front.
The NZ Army Ordnance Dept Badge is just to show a C M Bay maker mark.
All the best
James
The C M Bay manufacturing/designing the 1st NZ Cycle Company badge is an old debate that is professed by some, but so far has always turned out to be just hearsay.

However the C M Bay stamping on both the Home Service NZ Army Ordnance Dept Badge and the Home Service NZ Army Ordnance Corps Badge are undeniable.
It is my opinion Cecil Bay was responsible for the engraving of both these badge dies. However, I suspect the dies may have been used by other manufacturers as the need for more badges was required, Which would explain why some are maker marked and some are not.

I suspect your 23rd collar stamp is an RD number.

As for the bronze or white metal version of the Volunteers Cycle badge, forum member Omok1 (aka Craig Hooper) has these in his collection, hopefully he will share a picture.
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  #20  
Old 10-06-19, 09:15 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Hi

Just a quick reply and will add some more later. I am fairly certain that Bay made those NZCC badges. He also made the large RSA badge from 1918 to 1927. This is marked "C......B" and the RD number ("RD 861" - this number works out to around 1916).

The small "triple fern" badges have tiny letters "C.B" and "1914" if they've not been overpolished! These sometimes turn up in white metal, bronze and brass.
The RSA badge design (RD 861) is registered to the "NZ Returned Soldiers Association Headquarters Wellington."
It was registered on the 5th June 1916.
C M Bay did produce RSA badges, and was responsible for the design of safety chain modification. However, given that Cecil Bay moved to Te Mahia Bay in the Marlborough Sounds circa 1921, where he and his wife owned and managed the Te Mahia Bay Resort, I am skeptical that he made the RSA badges after 1922.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 10-06-19 at 09:29 AM.
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  #21  
Old 10-06-19, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Hi

Been mulling over this question and I think that while the designs may have been registered to a particular jeweller, C. M. Bay (Cecil Montagu BAY) would have produced the dies for them.

Bay made an awful lot of the Reinforcement badges that we still see today. I was once told by someone who knew him well that, many years after the end of the war, Cecil Bay would take his small boat over to the place he had in the Marlborough Sounds (South Island) and drop kerosene tins full of badges over the side of the boat.....

The same guy told me that he preferred to hire women for the job of cutting out the design as they were more careful than the men who would cheerfully chop off the tips of fernleaves on a design, thereby ruining the badge.
Maybe they were also cheaper to employ?
I don't mind a good story, but sometimes its just a story, sometimes it has some truth to it.

Cecil Bay was prosecuted in October 1917, for "allowing females to perform saw-piercing work on other than base metals. The women were engaged-on gold and silver. work, which was usually done by men. This constituted a breach of the jewellers award."

Cecil Bay's shop was at 66 Willis Street in Wellington, he employed Male tradesmen at about 3 a week, whereas women and boys were paid about 1 a week.
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  #22  
Old 10-06-19, 09:39 AM
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This thread was started almost 10 years ago.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mili...any-t1738.html
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  #23  
Old 10-06-19, 02:45 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Hello Brent,
many thanks for the correction and yes, 23rd collar.... ;-)
It would be good to have some pictorial evidence that this winged wheel badge was ever worn.
I did purchase mine from Craig, many years ago.
Attached is a competitor to 66 Willis St... 108 Willis St.

All the best
James
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  #24  
Old 11-06-19, 02:26 AM
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Hi all

This is what the Forum should be about and you have certainly added to my knowledge of Bay's activities. So I was correct about the relative cost of employing women?

I did know that Bay came up with the idea of the ring on the back of the crown (mostly because so many badges were being lost, given that they were worn far more than medals).

An early edition of the RSA magazine (then called "Quick March") carries a side bar column entitled "Hints to Badge Wearers" giving you a few tips on how not to lose your badge!

If you look at early "C. B." badges (the degree of wear evident in the strike gives this away) you will see a very small R.D. number marked on it. From memory it is R.D. 1101 or maybe 1011. I'll check on the couple of examples that I have. Someone with access to the relevant files might be able to track this down, subject to getting the correct number of course!

What might be less well known is that Bay "converted" the stock held by the Returned Soldiers Association for the sum of around threepence a badge! These were badges made by Mayer and Kean with the "R.D. 861" marking punched into the back.

Badges by Bay, have the number on the front as per the reinforcement badges, but these have almost become illegible "dots" on later strikes, as well as these strikes showing evidence of cracks and rust.

The point about him moving to Te Mahia is also interesting. The contract to produce the badges would have then been passed to another maker one would guess.

At a potential membership of well over 57,000 (not including the reissue of badges) that would have kept someone fairly busy....
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  #25  
Old 11-06-19, 08:43 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Hello Brent,
many thanks for the correction and yes, 23rd collar.... ;-)
It would be good to have some pictorial evidence that this winged wheel badge was ever worn.
I did purchase mine from Craig, many years ago.
Attached is a competitor to 66 Willis St... 108 Willis St.

All the best
James
Hi James,

I remember that NZFA badge, sold by CoinsNZ.
Is it a good fit in the box?
I have 6 Jewellers listed in my files that had shops in Willis Street during WW1.

Cheers
Brent
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  #26  
Old 11-06-19, 09:07 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Hi all

This is what the Forum should be about and you have certainly added to my knowledge of Bay's activities. So I was correct about the relative cost of employing women?

I did know that Bay came up with the idea of the ring on the back of the crown (mostly because so many badges were being lost, given that they were worn far more than medals).

An early edition of the RSA magazine (then called "Quick March") carries a side bar column entitled "Hints to Badge Wearers" giving you a few tips on how not to lose your badge!

If you look at early "C. B." badges (the degree of wear evident in the strike gives this away) you will see a very small R.D. number marked on it. From memory it is R.D. 1101 or maybe 1011. I'll check on the couple of examples that I have. Someone with access to the relevant files might be able to track this down, subject to getting the correct number of course!

What might be less well known is that Bay "converted" the stock held by the Returned Soldiers Association for the sum of around threepence a badge! These were badges made by Mayer and Kean with the "R.D. 861" marking punched into the back.

Badges by Bay, have the number on the front as per the reinforcement badges, but these have almost become illegible "dots" on later strikes, as well as these strikes showing evidence of cracks and rust.

The point about him moving to Te Mahia is also interesting. The contract to produce the badges would have then been passed to another maker one would guess.

At a potential membership of well over 57,000 (not including the reissue of badges) that would have kept someone fairly busy....
As far as I know, Mayer & Kean made the NZRSA badges from 1916 to 1918 and C M Bay made them from 1918.

I have never compared early RSA badges, but would suspect that the original badge die was made by M&K and then used by Bay to make more. It would be interesting to compare badges to see if that is correct.

It is worth mentioning that when the first RSA badges were produced in late 1916, they were completely unofficial and intended only to be worn on civilian dress, however, a returned soldier employed on home duties and still in uniform, were allowed to wear a vertical scarlet braid strip on the left cuff which indicated that the wearer was a returned soldier. (if wounded while on service it was worn next to a gold vertical strip for each time wounded)
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  #27  
Old 12-06-19, 03:41 AM
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Hi

I can access some examples from a few different sources so I could (with luck!) potentially post several images of the variants if there were to be sufficient interest. It might take a week or so.

One major difference between the Bay badges and the M & K ones (apart from the placing of the R.D. number previously noted) is that the "panel" for the number is slightly larger and some of the M & K badges are often either stamped in small numbers or engraved with varying degrees of skill.

I've seen one some years back that can only have been numbered either with a pin or some other sharp object like an engineer's scribe!

Somewhere I have a copy of the public notice calling for tenders for the supply of RSA badges. You can also find tenders for "10,000 sets of N.Z.R. shoulder titles"!

The red stripe comment is of interest too. Before the RSA badge there was the so-called "Returned Soldier's" armlet. I believe that many returned men deeply resented this "cheap gesture"[ an actual quote from the period] and the papers of the time are full of letters and comments on this topic.

What might have been an aggravating factor regarding this armlet was that it was described as being "Turkey red" in colour......

Gallipoli wasn't that far removed in time!
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  #28  
Old 12-06-19, 06:47 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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You can also find tenders for "10,000 sets of N.Z.R. shoulder titles"!
I just happen to own the New Zealand Rifles shoulder title badge die that was used to make some of those 10,000 sets.
It is pictured with a British made NZR title for comparison.
I suspect the die was made by Wellington manufacturers Mayer & Kean, but may have possibly been made by William Bock.


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  #29  
Old 19-06-19, 07:28 AM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Many thanks for the interesting info guys,
Here in the first pic are 4 different types of RSA Badges I have, associated with WW1
The one on the top left is a Auckland RSA badge by C.M. Pace (though it could be Page).
Top Right has no maker mark, but has 9 over 390 so maybe Trooper John William Reed. I understand that the ANZAC Club was based in Dunedin?
Bottom Left has RGD 861 to front and a safety loop to top back
Bottom right has a partly obliterated D 861 to back, and no safety loop.
Last photo shows the sample pool I managed to dig up... and show some with safety chains and also Yearly Subs plaques attached. The bottom two small versions are to WW1 chaps, 23/1590 and with the 1957 year plaque, 2/2297.
I haven't found any evidence of the RD 1101 or 1011 on the early ones Dumdum, but if you let me know where I might find it I'll get the magnifying glass out and have a better look...:-)
All the best
James
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  #30  
Old 19-06-19, 07:42 AM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Hello Brent,
yes to a snug fit for the NZFA badge in its box.
I had a quick check of the NZR titles I have, and besides Gaunt, the only other which is marked is to Stokes & Sons.
There are slight variations I have to this title, but all unmarked. Maybe of the 10,000 the NZ made ones were not stamped to back.
All the best
James
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