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  #1  
Old 09-01-19, 01:28 PM
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KLR KLR is offline
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Some of you might know that I have been defining and describing different dies for KLR cap badges – regular, unofficial, Vol Bns, TF Bns, officers and ORs. The comparison of different dies (a technique used in numismatics - my day job) to link makers as well as a chronology. In this case, the most distinctive area is of the grassy ‘ground’ I have acquired a few good KLR badges in 2018 but what I’d like to share with you is more of a wider discovery – a die linkage that creates a very good sequence.

In 1895 the WO authorised a badge for the 4th VB KLR to wear on the new FSC. It was defined as Pattern 4362/1895 and sketched in their archives (at TNA) - a WM horse rearing on a ground (without a scroll). There are a few examples of this badge about and mine <213> certainly appears to be like the sketch. I have catalogued this one as 1896/D[ie]2 (for reasons apparent below).

The next year the WO finally got around to authorising a proper cap badge to all the regular units (and quite a few of the VBs). The new design, sealed as Pattern 4362A/1896, was the same horse on a ground but with the addition of a scroll reading THE ‟KINGS” underneath. I’ve logged almost 30 different dies for this pattern – there was a mass production in the war years. Not surprisingly, I found that I had two bi-metal examples of 1896/D2 <26>.

In 1902 the WO decreed that officers should wear a dark bronze badge when in Service Dress – the badge we know as an OSD one. Imagine my excitement when I found amongst my KLR OSDs another Die 2 but in this case with FIRMIN / LONDON on an oval plaque on the back <13>.

In 1908 new badges were designed for the new TF battalions – but without WO Pattern numbers until 1915. Then, one of my best finds of 2018 was an all WM 7th TF Bn <335> to join the 1896/D2 family !

The last link is the 5th Bn which badge K&K called the ‘1927’ badge (2357 – there is also a BM version too) <196>; it is undoubtedly an 1896/D2 but with a different scroll.




Dammit - I always get the photo loading the wroing way round - please start with the WM at the end !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 5th 1927 196a.jpg (41.0 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg 5th 1927 196b.jpg (43.2 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg 7th Bn D2 (2).jpg (40.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg OSD F 13aa.jpg (62.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg OSD F 13b.jpg (55.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 1896 D2 26.jpg (40.4 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg 4-6VB 213.jpg (44.7 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by KLR; 09-01-19 at 01:33 PM. Reason: dammit photo loading !
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  #2  
Old 09-01-19, 01:33 PM
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Good info, thanks for this.
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Old 09-01-19, 01:36 PM
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Thanks Leigh, one day I'll get them all up in an album like Jelly's
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Old 09-01-19, 01:53 PM
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So why is the 5th Bn badge using the incorrect scroll for the horse or vice-versa?
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Old 09-01-19, 06:34 PM
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Correct or incorrect ? I suspect that Firmin 'developed' the new badge by using their tried and tested horse die with a new scroll design - quite simple !
K&K thought it Firmin's response to a demand to a new design. I'm not 100% sure it was 1927 (WO papers refer to what was otherwise Pattern 10042/1926) and it might be earlier. curiously this badge turns up (illustrated) in the CNN for 1949 !
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Old 09-01-19, 08:17 PM
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Excellent info KLR.
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please.
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Old 10-01-19, 05:46 AM
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Absolutely brilliant.

KLR is not my area of interest, but that doesn’t prevent me from appreciating the significance of your discovery and the elation you must be feeling at uncovering this die’s lineage.

Thanks for sharing your findings. Inspirational.

JT
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Old 10-01-19, 09:18 AM
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It's this sort of approach to collecting that emphasises the point of "specialising" in researching and collecting the insignia of one regiment as opposed to the magpie plunderer's hoarding of all that's "interesting" (of which I'm guilty).
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Old 10-01-19, 10:15 AM
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Hi KLR

Its a fascinating aspect of this hobby that I'm guilty of indulging in myself, collecting varieties of similar common insignia.

A couple of thoughts though, I seem to remember reading that badge dies started with a hand made master die set from which multiple production dies sets were made, is that right?

And if so it must be possible that some badge maker's bought dies in from a specialist die maker, in which case more than one company could end up making pretty similar badges.

Its also possible that in time of War when every Regiment needed large quantities of badges at the same time, even a company as large as Firmin's couldn't have kept up, they may have loaned dies out to sub contractors or even what would have been opposition companies in peace time, so there is no 100% in any of this.

Its also possible that this isn't the only die set used by Firmin's

Rob
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Old 11-01-19, 05:15 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Thanks KLR, great research.
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Old 11-01-19, 12:47 PM
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Thanks Rob, I have to admit that I don't know if a 'hand made master die set from which multiple production dies sets were made' but it sounds likely. I do know that there were specialist 'die sinkers' and that various companies did share / rent out dies. Yes, I know of one other (1896 KLR) Firmin die and I strongly suspect another one is too. When I learn how to take a decent photograph I can show the stylistic links between various dies - for example Firmin usually has a ridge along the bottom of the 'ground' and that the mane of the horse is very 'spiky' - amongst other details.
What is frustrating is that companies like Gaunt produce an officer's badge which is unmistakable but there is no OR badge with the same design - they must have used another design. As Jelly has found - there might be loads of dies / designs but most are 'anonymous !
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Old 11-01-19, 09:39 PM
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Thanks KLR

this type of painstaking research is so important, and is a real benchmark moment.

So, from us collectors who greatly benefit from this and JT's work on The Queens, a huge thank you!

Cheers, Tim
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  #13  
Old 22-01-19, 12:27 PM
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There are a number of posts about Regt A having x different badges. I've been looking at badge dies mostly from my own collection but with a few other known ones - to see how many there might have been.
These lists do not pretend to be comprehensive but surely indicates how many "variations" (dies) there could be !!! Adding what type of fixtures - eg loops or sliders and braze holes do not constitute a different die !
I'm still on the look out for different dies (YES I will try to get photographs of all these dies when I learn how to use a camera !)



NOTES


The badges include officers' S&G and OSD, VBns Terr Bns - in BM, WM and GM, copies, theatre made etc

I have not yet counted the differing scrolls for the regular 1896 Pattern. Note: the 1896 Pattern was worn by 2VB, 6VB and 5TF, 7TF - but in different metals

1926 Pattern regular types also were worn by 5th Bn, 7 Bn - but in different metals
I have though - listed the dies for the two pieces of the Lpl Scottish.
Lpl Cam Scot not yet properly done but only 2 or 3 dies. 1992 Pattern NM Lpl Scot badges mostly use / copy dies from the 1908 dies !


The high number of dies for 1926 type 2 is because there is a vast number of officer's variations.


Complete KLR cap badge dies (so far !)
Regular (see also horse VB and TF)
1896/D 28
Unofficial badges
1/ Gaunt 5
2/ J&Co 1
3/ Theatre Made 1
Regular
1926/1 6
1926/2 11
1926/3 1

VB (non horse)
5VB 3
7VB 2
TF (non horse)
6th Bn 5
8th Bn 1908 3
8th Bn 1939 (Offr) 7
8th Bn 1939 (OR) 2
8th Bn AA 1
10th Bn 1908 – horse dies 7
Saltire dies 6
Service Bns
LP 1914 - 1917 7

Last edited by KLR; 22-01-19 at 12:58 PM. Reason: notes
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