Denbighshire Hussars

[41st]

Paul,
The full dress uniform certainly conforms to the pattern of cords etc. as shown in 'Historical Records of the Denbighshire Hussars Imperial Yeomanry 1795-1906', prior to the change to lancer plastron and girdle in 1904.
You should be able to check for definite which unit your relative was in by checking his service record. Try starting with his medal index cards at the PRO for the 1st WW.
Hwyl fawr,

[Pablo]

Cheers for that.

However, I'm still a little confused...

Unfortunately, I don't yet know the identity of the soldier; only the possible surname based on the lines of my family tree that he may have come from and as yet, there don't seem to be any of these surnames appearing as soldiers who served with the Denbighshire Hussars.

I appreciate that that's a bit off-topic for this forum though.

However, you say that the dress uniform that he's wearing on the photo conforms to the period between 1795-1906. So, might this imply that the photo of the soldier in the dress uniform is in fact older, and pre-dates that of someone who's served during WW1?

Regards

Paul

[41st]

Paul,
Without a doubt.
The gentleman in the dress uniform can easliy be dated to before 1901-1902 or 1904 depending upon who you read, when the old Hussar patern uniform was replaced by the plastron and girdle referred to earlier.
The reference to 1795 is by the way only to their period of existence and not that style of uniform.
Hope that helps.
41st

[Pablo]

Cheers for that 41st.

If that's the case, then the men in the two photos cannot seem to be the same person, given that the one in the dress uniform appears to be older than the other one.

That being the case, are you of the opinion that the younger looking soldier in the second photograh is also of the Denbighshire Hussars, or might he be from (is it...) the Prince of Wales Regiment the badge for which I think I've read is frequently mistaken to be that of the Denbighshire Hussars?

Thanks for your help!

Regards

Paul

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by signalman

hello to you all,im a new member to the forum,and it is an absolute goldmine of information.i have attached an studio portrait of a sergeant which i believe to be a member of the denbighshire hussars.the cap and collar badges are very clear.if im wrong on this one i am sure you will let me know!.im not sure of the date on this,but at a guess i would say circa 1910.also if you look at the studio address it puts it in the right area.any way i hope this is of some use.

Yes ..... DH(I)Y Sergeant circa 1907.

Headdress: - Blue Staff Pattern Cap, double scarlet banding (introduced into the Regiment in 1907 for the Other Ranks)
Jacket: Blue, shoulder chain mail on blue with the "DHIY" shoulder titles, white metal buttons with PoWs badge. Sliver lace chevrons on blue.
Overalls: blue with double scarlet leg stripes.

* ERVII Medal probably has a mustard yellow ribbon.
** Other Ranks Staff Pattern Cap still held at the RWF Museum at Caernarvon Castle, in Gog' land (North Wales).

Really great photo...... very nice indeed! Kinda puts to bed the "upturned scroll" thing .... does it not ;0) ....... just a makers variation and or cleaning bumps and knocks or Soldier preference alteration. My hunch is that many were altered because the bottom scrolls disappeared behind the leather chin strap in the khaki Field cap..... turning the scrolls upwards made the badge look better in the cap because the scrolls could be seen (partially) - it also copies their button.

[Alan O]

Super photo. Indeed if you only looked at the badge and knew nothing about the uniform then one might say Wiltshire yeomanry as its the same badge.

[41st]

Gryff,
Great photo. I'll look out the one you want me to check on now I'm back from y Gogledd.
The ribbon for the territorial decoration should be green as shown in the photo btw.
Cofion gorau
Kevin

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by 41st

Gryff,
Great photo. I'll look out the one you want me to check on now I'm back from y Gogledd.
The ribbon for the territorial decoration should be green as shown in the photo btw.
Cofion gorau
Kevin

Thanks Kev

I thought the TD was green.... but then remembered the Mustard Yellow Yeomanry ribbon..... so it was a happy guess

That photo above is a belter..... I hope Signalman is still on the forum..... a hi res scan of that photo will provide cast iron evidence..... and will clean up really well.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Super photo. Indeed if you only looked at the badge and knew nothing about the uniform then one might say Wiltshire yeomanry as its the same badge.

Alan

Love this badge...... I think it 100%...... the scrolls would have started off horizontal though. These PoWs are also seen on one of the DHY Officers Cap badge maker variants. This is the later issue... "H" touches the bottom line of the scroll & "single" Fleur-de-lys collars in the coronet. I dont think a "plain" brass was ever issued...... I think the bronze chemical finish (Florentine Brown) was cleaned off some of the badges...... there is one issue that is a true bronze and therefore would stay bronze (the last issue around 1916 before 24th (DHY) RWF). The slider cap badge probably appears closer to the Great War (as in the Leics Yeo).

I have two collars (bi-metal, "D" loop) in the PoWs shown below..... I am not sure if you can find the bimetal cap with the slider though..... probably just E/W "O" loops at 8mm long.

The other photo is of DHY Sergeants circa 1913, Farrier, Staff & Troop....... is the Troop Sgt wearing a cap badge size white metal PoWs above his chevrons?

The image on the right shows "the same maker" PoWs on T/Y/Debigh issue, dates approximate. (* Officers scroll did not appear before 1904 earliest possibly - first pattern card in 1901 just shows silver/gilt PoWs without the scroll)

[Bill]

The gentleman in Signalman's photograph is wearing the Imperial Yeomanry Long Service Medal and Good Conduct Medal (ERVII) awarded to NCO's and troopers for 10 years exemplary service. Instituted in 1904 obsolete in 1908, although 48 were awarded in 1909 and three more thereafter (ref Medal Yearbook 2012). The badge matches the photograph from the 1901/02 so I would say that the portrait is pre 1909.

The bronzed DY is very different from the blackened brass 15th London when seen side by side.

Cheers, Bill

[GriffMJ]

Bill

I am pretty confident the photograph was taken 1907/8. The Cap was introduced in 1907...... the badges on the cap (and collar) shown will be the WD1902 Pattern Card for Other Ranks DHIY (The same but different in "detail" to the ones that I show with Alans)..... he is also still wearing the DHIY shoulder titles as well.

[BROOKIES]

Just a point if he's in the DHIY then the medal would be the Imperial Yeomanry Medal on a yellow ribbon.

Records show 19 issued to the Denbigh.

Source Imperal Yeomanry book by J M A Tamplin (Spink)

Could be Sgt A Hill issued Aug 07 (staff no 47)

One to work on.

Ta

Jonathan

[GriffMJ]

Jonathan

I would go with that..... what better day to have your photo taken.... on receipt of your medal.

I think the medal is this one....

[Peter Brydon]

The series of books on Long Service medals by J.M.A. Tamplin are well worth acquiring for anyone with an interest in the Auxillary Forces, I bought most of mine through E bay at very reasonable prices.

P.B.

[2747andy]

Mmmmmmmmmmm....

I'm still not sold on there being a Bim Denbighshire ORs badge?

Andy