Victorian Era Uniform Identification

[TMHagin]

I've hit a wall researching my ancestor Thomas SMITH (abt. 1872-1939) pictured in the attached photo. The uniform appears to be British: 7-button frock (appears to be one solid color), piping, white buff belt, collar badges, shoulder titles, and (what looks like) a Glengarry with a leather band. He is also holding a staff but it is unclear if this is a riding crop or swagger stick.

Figure the image is from Victorian era based on estimated birth date of 1872 + 18 years. We suspect that he was from the Birmingham area if that helps.

Any assistance on regiment or collar badge identification would be most appreciated.

Humbly submitted to your collective wisdom!

[Peter Brydon]

Not certain but might be Kings Liverpools with "rose" collars.

P.B.

[grumpy]

The garment is the 7 button tunic [ie "best"], not the frock, which had no braid to front. The fact that coloured cuffs and collar not apparent is no surprise: orthochromatic film was very bad at distinguishing scarlet from naby. I say navy because this is a "Royal" regiment, evidenced by the braid to base of collar. This was to obey the heraldic rules: never colour next colour, because the white counts as a metal.
"Kings" would fit, with royal facings.

Just one word of caution: regiments always found ways to not obey the rules, so all the above could be cobblers.

[Sonofacqms]

The collars could be for a Hampshire unit, the 6th Hampshire wore a smaller version of the cap badge as a collar badge.

[Toby Purcell]

I am confident he is a King's Regiment (Liverpool) soldier some time after 1881 and before 1898. The right collar badge is quite clear and shows the scroll at the base of the rose.

The standard Hampshire's collar was surrounded by a wreath that would have been visible in the photo. Did the 6th Hants have a scroll at the base of their rose?

[grey_green_acorn]

Here is an example of the collar badge and possibly the glengarry badge (although this one is a repro!)

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

Here ius an example of the collar badge and possibly the glengarry badge (although this one is a repro!)

Spot on and what great photos. I could not find one of the collar alone on the gallery here.

[Peter Brydon]

Another Kings Liverpools portrait which shows the glengarry in better detail.

P.B.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I am confident he is a King's Regiment (Liverpool) soldier some time after 1881 and before 1898. The right collar badge is quite clear and shows the scroll at the base of the rose.

The standard Hampshire's collar was surrounded by a wreath that would have been visible in the photo. Did the 6th Hants have a scroll at the base of their rose?

what happened in 1898 please?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

what happened in 1898 please?

My understanding is that that was when the glengarry was replaced by a Field Service Cap and new design of cap badge, but I might well have missed out changes in tunic design in the interim that could have narrowed the date down still further. Please correct me accordingly if I have. I recall that the FSC was initially worn with collar badges so the introduction may have been a few years earlier than 98 (perhaps 96 when the 'King's' collar badge changed?) and of course officers were wearing the Torin throughout the 1880s.

[Toby Purcell]

I have evidence that both collar badges might have been worn at the same time, perhaps by the first and second battalions, although this is pure supposition (what do '8th Foot and 'KLR' think?). It seems that the white horse collar badge was worn by a battalion in India in the 1870s on their frocks. Photos of the same regiment in full dress tunics shows no collar badges at all. Both men are sitting and have their white gloves placed inside their frock with a button undone, as if posed by the photographer. As well as the collar badges the pre-1881 numeral 8, in brass, appears on the shoulder straps and the frocks have single loops of lace.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I have evidence that both collar badges might have been worn at the same time, perhaps by the first and second battalions, although this is pure supposition (what do '8th Foot and 'KLR' think?). It seems that the white horse collar badge was worn by a battalion in India in the 1870s on their frocks. Photos of the same regiment in full dress tunics shows no collar badges at all. Both men are sitting and have their white gloves placed inside their frock with a button undone, as if posed by the photographer. As well as the collar badges the pre-1881 numeral 8, in brass, appears on the shoulder straps and the frocks have single loops of lace.

Bump ?????

[Peter Brydon]

Toby,

Sorry I have not replied before, to be honest I did not see your post.

I think you may well be right, I will check some books and photos and see what I can find.

Regards

Peter

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Toby,

Sorry I have not replied before, to be honest I did not see your post.

I think you may well be right, I will check some books and photos and see what I can find.

Regards

Peter

Thanks Peter, it will be really interesting to know and may be something that even the regimental museum is not aware of (?).

Bob

[TMHagin]

Let me begin by thanking all of you for sharing your knowledge. You have provided many valuable clues in my research.

Additional information has come to light regarding the pictured soldier.

I have obtained the U.S. naturalization records that show he immigrated to the United States in 1892. This same record also lists his birth date as 1865, which could expand the window in which he served.

Based on the previous birth date, the following record was uncovered in the The National Archives (another search is being made with the expanded birth date):

Thomas Smith age 17y 7m attested 30 Apr 1889 [No. 1336] born Christ Church, Liverpool. Address 19 Mould Street Liverpool. Occupation labourer. 5ft 4 7/8 ins, sallow complexion, dark blue eyes, dark brown hair, scar right upper lip. 4th Battn. Private

Questions this record raises:

1. Would the 4th Battalion Volunteers have uniforms this elaborate for a Private?
2. Would a Private carry (or have been photographed with) a swagger stick?
3. (Knowing he immigrated in 1892) Could he have served for only three years?