7th (Cyclist) Bn Welsh Regt

[Peter Brydon]

At Bedford today I picked up a second hand copy of Mike Chappell`s book in the "British Soldier in the 20th Century " series, the regimental special- "The Welsh Regiment "

I am sure all Welsh Regiment affectionardo`s have a copy already but there is a nice coloured drawing of a Signals Sergeant of the 7th Cyclist Bn in full dress in it and a most interesting plate of badges which includes a 7th Bn pouch badge ( maltese cross below kings crown with dragon on cycle wheel in centre and title on circle )

P.B.

[Rob Miller]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

At Bedford today I picked up a second hand copy of Mike Chappell`s book in the "British Soldier in the 20th Century " series, the regimental special- "The Welsh Regiment "

I am sure all Welsh Regiment affectionardo`s have a copy already but there is a nice coloured drawing of a Signals Sergeant of the 7th Cyclist Bn in full dress in it and a most interesting plate of badges which includes a 7th Bn pouch badge ( maltese cross below kings crown with dragon on cycle wheel in centre and title on circle )

P.B.

Thanks for the tip, I found a copy on "AbeBooks", Its very interesting.
Rob.

[peter4447]

Many thanks again Toby - sorry for the delay in replying have been a bit busy elsewhere of late.
Kevin kindly did a check for me and found that Churchills states that the 7th Bn went into dark green and blackened badges in 1912. As the snake belt came into use in 1914 this could mean the photo is of the 2/7th or 3/7th Bn both of which were raised at Cardiff in 1914.
If this is the case what does surprise me is despite the change in 1912, they must have been issued with brass badges and brass buttons two years after the change was made.
The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that the 1/7th Band retained its brass badges and buttons after the 1912 change but I think this would have been highly unlikely, particularly if if was used for recruiting purposes.
Looks like I will have to dig a little deeper!
Thanks again
Peter

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by peter4447

Many thanks again Toby - sorry for the delay in replying have been a bit busy elsewhere of late.
Kevin kindly did a check for me and found that Churchills states that the 7th Bn went into dark green and blackened badges in 1912. As the snake belt came into use in 1914 this could mean the photo is of the 2/7th or 3/7th Bn both of which were raised at Cardiff in 1914.
If this is the case what does surprise me is despite the change in 1912, they must have been issued with brass badges and brass buttons two years after the change was made.
The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that the 1/7th Band retained its brass badges and buttons after the 1912 change but I think this would have been highly unlikely, particularly if if was used for recruiting purposes.
Looks like I will have to dig a little deeper!
Thanks again
Peter

I think your suppositions highly likely. You must remember that there was an explosion of new units being raised in 1914 and all fighting to be equipped first!
Such things as black rifle buttons would have been fought over and yet COs' were striving to achieve some sort of uniformity. It might also be that units with the words 'Rifles' in their title would have been given priority over supply. That sort of prioritisation still occurs today.

[peter4447]

Hi Toby
Just been doing a little more digging and am wondering what your thoughts would be on this one.
My understanding is that S shaped belt buckles were worn by Rifle Regiments prior to 1914 and as the 7th Battalion changed roles and moved the blackened badges and buttons c.1912, could it have been possible for them to have starting using the S shaped 'rifle' buckles at this time?
This, I think, would also help to explain the brand new appearance of the Bass drum, the Drum Major's white gloves, the Bandmaster's Glamorgan collar badges and the overall very smart and well turned out appearance of this Band, which would probably have been lacking in the mad scramble to equip a rapidly expanding Army in the early months of the War itself.
Regards
Peter

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by peter4447

Hi Toby
Just been doing a little more digging and am wondering what your thoughts would be on this one.
My understanding is that S shaped belt buckles were worn by Rifle Regiments prior to 1914 and as the 7th Battalion changed roles and moved the blackened badges and buttons c.1912, could it have been possible for them to have starting using the S shaped 'rifle' buckles at this time?
This, I think, would also help to explain the brand new appearance of the Bass drum, the Drum Major's white gloves, the Bandmaster's Glamorgan collar badges and the overall very smart and well turned out appearance of this Band, which would probably have been lacking in the mad scramble to equip a rapidly expanding Army in the early months of the War itself.
Regards
Peter

The Pattern 1914 Waist belt was introduced with the Infantry Equipment, Pattern 1914 in List of Changes entry LoC 16977, dated 30 August 1914. The Waist belt is 2 1/4-inches wide and was originally issued in two lengths, 42-inches and 48-inches respectively. It has a snake buckle fastening, two 2 1/4-inch side buckles, two rear straps with 1-inch buckles, and two rear straps without buckles. As with all leather parts of the Pattern 1914 Infantry Equipment, the color was changed from "Service Brown" to the darker "London Brown" by List of Changes entry LoC 17219, 31 December 1914 / 30 March 1915.

The earlier belt with a snake buckle used by Rifle regiments relates to the leather equipment used in the Napoleonic wars and subsequently with successor equipments, but the belts in your photo are clearly not these, but those for the 1914 leather equipment above.

As regards the smart gloves and other band equipment, I feel it is likely that much of it could have come from either, the old Volunteer Regiments stores, or the Territorial Associations. I believe that such items did not come from Public Expense (i.e. WD issue) and so there would have been less of a problem with their supply. The commercial companies that supplied musical instruments and associated regalia were doing a roaring trade.

[peter4447]

Very many thanks Toby - the different types of WW1 equipment is proving to be very much of a learning curve for me and I am certainly very grateful for the expert knowledge that abounds on this site.
Hopefully without going off thread and as you have remarked, it does amaze me how quickly these Bands were able to get up and running so quickly. The 10th Essex for example had a Bandsman from the Wivenhoe Town Band enlist on the 3rd Sept 1914. He in turn encouraged other Band members from Wivenhoe to join, which they did. He was then appointed as Temporary Bandmaster and the Battalion officers purchased the instruments. By Christmas 1914 the Band was very much of a going concern.
As an aside he remained as Bandmaster was promoted Sergeant, was awarded the Military Medal and finally died of wounds in 1918, received whilst advancing with the Band in their role as stretcher bearers.
Many thanks again
Peter

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by peter4447

Very many thanks Toby - the different types of WW1 equipment is proving to be very much of a learning curve for me and I am certainly very grateful for the expert knowledge that abounds on this site.
Hopefully without going off thread and as you have remarked, it does amaze me how quickly these Bands were able to get up and running so quickly. The 10th Essex for example had a Bandsman from the Wivenhoe Town Band enlist on the 3rd Sept 1914. He in turn encouraged other Band members from Wivenhoe to join, which they did. He was then appointed as Temporary Bandmaster and the Battalion officers purchased the instruments. By Christmas 1914 the Band was very much of a going concern.
As an aside he remained as Bandmaster was promoted Sergeant, was awarded the Military Medal and finally died of wounds in 1918, received whilst advancing with the Band in their role as stretcher bearers.
Many thanks again
Peter

Yes it is salutary that bands were taken much more seriously as a unit necessity in WW1 and even units raised just for the duration strove to form bands, including some battalions of the Royal Naval Division and Machine Gun Corps.

Here also are some earlier snake pattern belts for you to compare, LtoR Crimean and Napoleonic and 1914.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

At Bedford today I picked up a second hand copy of Mike Chappell`s book in the "British Soldier in the 20th Century " series, the regimental special- "The Welsh Regiment "

I am sure all Welsh Regiment affectionardo`s have a copy already but there is a nice coloured drawing of a Signals Sergeant of the 7th Cyclist Bn in full dress in it and a most interesting plate of badges which includes a 7th Bn pouch badge ( maltese cross below kings crown with dragon on cycle wheel in centre and title on circle )

P.B.

I know this is an old thread but adding this picture from my collection, perhaps still of interest here.

[BROOKIES]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

At Bedford today I picked up a second hand copy of Mike Chappell`s book in the "British Soldier in the 20th Century " series, the regimental special- "The Welsh Regiment "

I am sure all Welsh Regiment affectionardo`s have a copy already but there is a nice coloured drawing of a Signals Sergeant of the 7th Cyclist Bn in full dress in it and a most interesting plate of badges which includes a 7th Bn pouch badge ( maltese cross below kings crown with dragon on cycle wheel in centre and title on circle )

P.B.

Image of said item.

Jonathan

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