Tower Hamlets Rifles - Sealed Pattern

[Jelly Terror]

Would anyone happen to know the SP date for the THR cap badge, please?

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=83366

With thanks,

JT

[badjez]

JT,

As it is a TF unit it is doubtful any sealed patterns exists. These badges were provisioned by local TA Associations so the War Office were not involved. The first sealed patterns for TF were usually Gt War or post-1922.


Sorry I cannot be more positive.

Stephen.

[KLR]

Stephen is right - that there are no SP for 1908 TF badges (sadly) UNLESS you find a London HQ / archive - they are not in the Mus of Lond !
Apparently, there are a number for some part of Scotland - Glasgow ???? that the late David Linaker found.


What I can tell you is that in 1915 the WO did give WO Patt nos to the TF badges (a few were let out). The first 1915 batch were given three digit numbers and finally given four digit (as the regulars) in 1917.


I might have something that resides in the mess that is the current state of Badges of the 1st WW PART 2.


I'll get back to you
J

[KLR]

I must apologise, there IS some pre 1914 data at the NAM.
I can also tell you that the 1915 Patt no was
616/1915 17th City of London Batt, London Regt GM Bronzed ('bronzed' in WO parlance means 'blackened')
The date in 1915 should be at TNA


BTW I doubt if anyone can find a physical SP - all I can do is collate all the documentary sources.

[Jelly Terror]

Thanks gents,

Given that official designation for this unit did not come about until 1926, and that there are other SPs for similar units (QW&CSR to name but one), I was hopeful of a date... possibly 1930s.

JT

[Wmr-RHB]

Hm, I stand to be corrected.

But as far as I know the badge is that of 17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles), (a TA battalion of of The Prince Consort's Own (The Rifle Brigade)) from 1926 on. In 1937 they became The Tower Hamlets Rifles, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own).
Thus when the caption of the picture is correct it shows a post 1937 make of the badge (or made earlier, but after 1926, where there is provenance of it being in use post 1937?)

All the time part of the TA and not of the pre 1914 TF. Thus I guess that

The first sealed patterns for TF were usually Gt War or post-1922.

is applicable here (except that there was no TF anymore).

As an addition can be added that they were in the TF as 17th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and in the TA from 1920-22 with the same designation. From 1922-26 they were 17th London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles).

[Alan O]

I believe that he design dates from 1937 when the London Regt was reorganised and the 17th London was made a TF Bn of the Rifle Brigade. Although the title changed in 1926, the badge did not.

[KLR]

I'm not sure what the badge was at it's inception in 1908 BUT I strongly suspect that it was the same in 1915.
The only bit of information for the 1916 badge is that it was blackened !

(or was it blackened from the beginning -1908 ??)


I don't know what 32/18642 is (though there are lots of wonderful things in WO32). What I intended to look at is WO 359 which is the records of the RACD up to ?1939. Secondly, I will look at the The Ministry of Supply 1939-46 contracts ledger for metal cap badges TNA SUPP 4/152


J

[KLR]

I went to the National Archives the other day and found a reference to the 17th Bn London Regt in WO/359/19 p69
To whit - a new design cap badge was authorised / sealed on 28th May 1938 as Pattern 11281/1938 (and as CB 134). It superseded Patt 4029 (not sure which year).


I suspect that the Sealed Patterns may be at the IWM.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Hm, I stand to be corrected.

But as far as I know the badge is that of 17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles), (a TA battalion of of The Prince Consort's Own (The Rifle Brigade)) from 1926 on. In 1937 they became The Tower Hamlets Rifles, The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own).
Thus when the caption of the picture is correct it shows a post 1937 make of the badge (or made earlier, but after 1926, where there is provenance of it being in use post 1937?)

All the time part of the TA and not of the pre 1914 TF. Thus I guess that
is applicable here (except that there was no TF anymore).

As an addition can be added that they were in the TF as 17th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and in the TA from 1920-22 with the same designation. From 1922-26 they were 17th London Regiment (Poplar and Stepney Rifles).

As an aside, am I correct in thinking that the 'Poplar and Stepney' designation was dropped by 1926, and the unit re-designated at that time to '17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles) Territorial Army' (AO427/1926)?

[Wmr-RHB]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

As an aside, am I correct in thinking that the 'Poplar and Stepney' designation was dropped by 1926, and the unit re-designated at that time to '17th London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles) Territorial Army' (AO427/1926)?

I think that is consistent with the information I have. In 1926 they changed from Poplar and Stepney to Tower Hamlets. While the 1920, 1922 and 1937 re-designations were done to all of the former (and still existing in the TA Infantry) London Regiment units, this 1926 change is special to this unit.

They apparently wanted to refer to one of the two units that were merged to create the 1908 TF unit: 2nd Tower Hamlets Volunteer Rifle Corps and 15th Middlesex (The Customs and the Docks) Volunteer Rifle Corps.

[matti467]

Any of these answers got your 'seal' of approval ?