LRDG

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Opinions form the basis of most investigations. A number of items are decided 'genuine' by people's opinions and their agreements with others with no actual photographic or written proof that they are indeed genuine. Some of these people then get their noses out of joint when their opinions are questioned.

There will be no big revelation of who I have spoken to. If they're on the forum and wish to say something then I'm sure they will. I lean towards what they believe but then I might know other things.

Ill be honest, I am always looking for proof and a better understanding, and I do tend to push peoples buttons, but I am only trying to see if there is any substance behind these "opinions", but sadly its not looking hopeful so far.

I think if we openly give our opinions, we have to be prepared to have them questioned.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Genuine answer. Yes, I have supplied a photo of a die stamped badge with flat back in post #124.

The following NZ Pioneer badges are all British made and are all die struck, you could say there are some similarities to the die struck LRDG badges.

Attachment 218628Attachment 218629

Attachment 218630Attachment 218631

This one is worth showing as it shows multiple strikes were used.

Attachment 218632

If those are die stuck then every collector, specialist auction house and dealer has been getting it wrong for years.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

If those are die stuck then every collector, specialist auction house and dealer has been getting it wrong for years.

They are die struck.
To be honest I have only seen lots of Gaunt dies for die striking, I even own one.
Perhaps the question we should be asking, has anyone seen or got a Gaunt casting die they can share?

If you are correct in suggesting that it is me who has got it wrong, would that mean all my Brit made shoulder titles are cast? as they all have flat backs?

[lifeochil]

Of course die struck badges can have flat backs and can also leave an imprint in the reverse of the badge if it has a hollowed back.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

If those are die stuck then every collector, specialist auction house and dealer has been getting it wrong for years.

Another die-struck badge from Mayer and Toye (mentioned post #124) who only die stamp badges, they don't cast badges.

Mayer and Toye.jpg

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

They are die struck.
To be honest I have only seen lots of Gaunt dies for die striking, I even own one.
Perhaps the question we should be asking, has anyone seen or got a Gaunt casting die they can share?

If you are correct in suggesting that it is me who has got it wrong, would that mean all my Brit made shoulder titles are cast? as they all have flat backs?

Shoulder titles are smooth at the front,

EDIT: I'd also have though that they would have been stamped straight through the sheet metal.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Shoulder titles are smooth at the front,

Come on Keith, you must have seen the small indentations that separate the letters on shoulder titles, you must have noticed that they help spread the letters on curved shoulder titles, they are definitely engraved into the negative die.

Regardless, whether it is a simple shoulder title or a complex badge, the die-stamping process is identical if it has a flat back.

To put it simply, a negative die is engraved, a piece of brass sheet is placed over it, and then a big forging hammer drops and presses the brass sheet into the die.

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

EDIT: I'd also have though that they would have been stamped straight through the sheet metal.

I would say it depends on the manufacturer, here in New Zealand during WW1, many shoulder titles were die struck and then hand cut, whereas all the WW1 NZ shoulder titles that I have that are made by J. R. Gaunt, I suspect were die struck and then cut out by a punching die.

The following picture shows my negative die with a Gaunt stamped New Zealand Rifles shoulder title.
The die IMO is most likely to have been engraved by Mayer and Kean of Wellington, but it is possible it may have been William Bock.

NZR badge die.jpg
Gaunt 28 August 191.jpg

[dumdum]

Many years back a local junk shop had a strange object that drew my interest although I had no idea what it was at the time.

Imagine a "positive" version of the "NZR" title but cut from a block of hardened steel and relieved at the sides so that the "NZR" formed like a "plateau" to a rising mountain.

I'm lead to believe that this was what is called a "hob" and would have been used to create the dies to strike the eventual badge.

This "hob" was used to produce more "negative" dies and would be employed it the original die broke or wore out.

An engineering friend (now long passed away, sadly) told me that metallurgy was a little basic in those days (he trained in the 1920s) and many steels were water/ oil hardened, meaning that they had a hard outer shell with a softer inner core.

Sometimes the tools, etc. would last for years and sometimes....days.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Many years back a local junk shop had a strange object that drew my interest although I had no idea what it was at the time.

Imagine a "positive" version of the "NZR" title but cut from a block of hardened steel and relieved at the sides so that the "NZR" formed like a "plateau" to a rising mountain.

I'm lead to believe that this was what is called a "hob" and would have been used to create the dies to strike the eventual badge.

This "hob" was used to produce more "negative" dies and would be employed it the original die broke or wore out.

An engineering friend (now long passed away, sadly) told me that metallurgy was a little basic in those days (he trained in the 1920s) and many steels were water/ oil hardened, meaning that they had a hard outer shell with a softer inner core.

Sometimes the tools, etc. would last for years and sometimes....days.

I believe the correct terminology is hubbing.

[grey_green_acorn]

Hubbing is apparently the modern term for hobbing. See this post from Neibelungen

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...6&postcount=23

Tim

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

I am of the opinion that the LRDG title that was condemned earlier in this thread may in fact be an original.
I have compiled an image data base of over 18 accepted as original LRDG titles. Unfortunately I am unable to attach these images due to copyright and not having consent to do so.
I have noted that they all differ and even the matching pairs, although not dissimilar, do differ from one another. This title however is not dissimilar and compares favorably with the shape, color, size of lettering and stitching used in many of the known variants.
I have included an earlier image of this title as it was presented a few years back on auction.
I am open to anyone persuading me otherwise.

Hi Edy, I am still interested in your thoughts as to why Swende's shoulder title is still not sewn to the shoulder board, it just seems illogical that it would be removed from an officers slip on shoulder board?

The two below were never issued and are from the LRDG stores bag.

Brent

Officers LRDG unissued with dots between the letters..jpgOfficers LRDG unissued.jpg

[atillathenunns]

An original pair of shoulder titles to a known officer.

Officers LRDG matched pair.jpg

This one belongs to a New Zealand officer, as can be seen he has used a slip on LRDG shoulder title.

Officers NZ LRDG..jpg

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Hi Edy, I am still interested in your thoughts as to why Swende's shoulder title is still not sewn to the shoulder board, it just seems illogical that it would be removed from an officers slip on shoulder board?

The two below were never issued and are from the LRDG stores bag.

Brent

Attachment 218800Attachment 218801

Hi Brent, I suppose that this LRDG title had not yet been attached to a shoulder title or officers rank.

I assumed these loose ones to be earlier period to be sewn onto epaulettes, but have no idea why it has not been used. The later ones seem to have been ready made, sewn onto the khaki shoulder loops

I attached photos of an early epaulet, 3rd from left.

Thanks Edy

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Hi Brent, I suppose that this LRDG title had not yet been attached to a shoulder title or officers rank.

I assumed these loose ones to be earlier period to be sewn onto epaulettes, but have no idea why it has not been used. The later ones seem to have been ready made, sewn onto the khaki shoulder loops

I attached photos of an early epaulet, 3rd from left.

Thanks Edy

Thanks for sharing Edy, this is what the forum is all about, lets hope those who have criticised Swende’s badges do the honourable thing and share the LRDG badges in their collections.

I too have had good fortune to examine a few LRDG groupings and have also compiled my own image data base of LRDG badges and shoulder titles, unfortunately many of my images are from collectors who have asked me not to share their collections online.

An interesting observation, looking at yours and 11 other Rhodesia LRDG shoulder titles I have on file, all have the same plain lettering, but none appear to have same downward spike at the end of the “G” as the Swende badge has.

The earliest period photo I have showing the “G” with a downward spike is dated August 1943, so would be interested to know if anyone has an earlier photo?

In regard to Swende’s badge, I have always been leaning towards it being a copy, based mainly on the stitching, lack of any backing cloth and it not being attached to a slip on backing.
But having said that, I would hate to condemn something that could quite possibly be the real deal.
Until better information can be provided, Swende’s badge is IMO to much of a gamble.

I have included some period photos showing the first pattern LRDG shoulder titles, all of which were taken in 1941.
As can be seen from the photographic evidence, the first pattern LRDG shoulder titles did not have a downward spike at the end of the “G.”

Lieutenant E. W. Ellingham 5 Oct 1941.JPGShoulder title 5 Oct 1941....JPG

Shoulder title 5 Oct 1941.JPGShoulder title Officers 5 Oct 1941.JPG

[atillathenunns]

The following picture is taken from page 200 of the excellent book "The Kiwi Scorpions" by Brendon O'Carroll, it shows 2 first pattern LRDG shoulder titles sitting on top of the owners pay book. (Courtesy of the Shepherd collection)

Trooper B. F. Shepherd shoulder titles.jpg

Trooper B. F. Shepherd and GunnerE. C. Lofty

Trooper B. F. Shepherd and GunnerE. C. Lofty.jpg