LRDG

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Is there a reason that you use James MacKenzie's photos? I see a conflict of interest when you use his photos to push the originality of the title in this thread, especially when they're both exactly the same one.

The photos in my post #112 show the size of the badge, which often the fakers get wrong.

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by Luke H

No doubt ordered from this catalogue of FAKES.

You said “I’m tapping out of this thread” in post #106. Clearly you’re not applying this law of engagement!

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

The photos in my post #112 show the size of the badge, which often the fakers get wrong.

So you use the photos of a fake title to show the size of a genuine title even though you use a fake as an example? That's almost funny.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Looking at your badge I would describe is as die-cast. Die struck badges have the reverse imprint of the front detail where as die cast does not have the fine detail but it either flat or impressed (as yours is).

This is very different from casting a badge using just the front imprint or casting it using 'lost-wax' technique.

Using Luke's badges as examples the 13th/18th is die-cast construction which is typical of a design which would be inherently weak if die struck. On the other hand the 13th Hussars badge is a very common fake from the Martin Marsh stable and is die struck so you see the detail on the reverse. Gaunt made this design as a die-cast badge for officers badges and I have a period die-cast one with a slider.

Aaln

Hi Aaln, I am no expert on LRDG badges or their construction, all I have learned has been gained from others who have been kind enough to share their knowledge and collections, so I am only too happy to be corrected if there is better information on offer.

I agree, that die struck badges (using a negative and a positive die) will have a “reverse imprint of the front detail”, but I do not know of any original LRDG that have such a reverse stamping.
However, I do know that you can die-strike a badge just using a negative die. This style of striking would also leave a nice flat or slightly impressed reverse as you may get with a die-cast badge.

I think the biggest difference that should be pointed out between a die-struck badge and a die-cast badge, is one is made from hot molten metal, and the other is made from flat rolled sheet metal that will have no impurities such as air bubbles that is sometimes encountered with cast badges.

The following New Zealand manufactured badge was made from a negative and positive die. As can be seen it is maker marked MKW on the reverse of the bottom scroll.

NZMP Die stamped Mayer Obverse.jpgNZMP Die stamped Mayer reverse.jpgNZMP Die stamped MKW marked.jpg

The same NZMP negative die was later used (1970s I think) to make commemorative badge sets, the positive die had been long before sold as scrap value, so only the negative die was used in the striking. The following is a struck badge, not die cast.

NZMP Die stamped reproduction.jpg

Just out of interest, in the mid-1960’s, Mayer and Kean engravers, die-sinkers, medallists, changed their name to Mayer and Toye Limited when British company TKS took a half share. It is my understanding, the Mayer family later re-purchased the half share back, although the company name stayed the same, and has been fully owned by the Mayer family since that time.

So yesterday, being local, I took my LRDG badge down to the badge makers whose family has been stamping badges for over 100 years here in Wellington, and asked the expert, what do you think "Die-stamped or Die-cast?"

The answer at first was "definitely die stamped," and went on to say the lugs are not integral as you would expect with a cast badge, but after looking at it for a few minutes, he pointed out the blob under the "G", he did say he could not rule out it being die cast.

So I guess it comes down to matching up my badge to a known die-cast LRDG badge and see if it stacks up to being the same, or does it have more in common with a die-struck badge.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Thanks Brent, it’s definitely easier to draw comparisons when you have originals to compare them to.
Having said that, I’d like to comment that the two badges in this post do not have the indicators present that one would need to find in the Sand Cast variants (posts #35 left, #46) nor in the Die struck type (posts#35 right, #52 & #59).
Unfortunately for reasons known by members of the forum it would not be wise for me to reveal details on the indicators.

Cheers Edy

Hi Edy, I had always suspected the two badges in post #85 were cast, other than that was unsure. The badge attributed to Lieut Col. James Sutherland was sold by dealer Geoff Oldham, who did list it as a post war association badge.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Luke H

It’s a die cast badge it is NOT die struck.

Money back guarantees do not a real badge make. A now banned member and dealer always used his ‘money back guarantee if unhappy in any way’ as a tag line... he had wonderful 100% eBay feedback but it didn’t make the many fake badges he sold genuine.

I never said I believed your badge was fake. Aside from the the badge that’s the subject of this thread I’ve not commented on any of the others shown and won’t because I’m not an LRDG expert. I do however know a bit about the MM fakes which is what lead to my initial comments.

The fakes that started this thread were by the sounds of it in the hands of experienced collectors. Again that’s not any reflection on your badge, I’m just saying.

That’s probably a good sign then for your badge.

I don't agree that you have supplied any relevant information that proves my badge is die cast.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Many questions remain unanswered and the thread has deviated from the original post to a thread on apparently genuine LRDG badges with the majority of them having little or no provenance.
I count about six badges in this thread that have been declared as genuine by Edyc7 and atillathenunns and all of them are different.
From the information here it appears that two can be verified as genuine because they belonged to David Lloyd Owen.

I think if you read my posts, you will find I have only declared one badge as “verified as genuine” because it belonged to David Lloyd Owen, and incredibly it turned out to be a cast badge. If you didn’t learn anything, I certainly did.
My belief is if we all pool our information, we will start seeing some patterns emerge.

Originally Posted by lifeochil

There must have been as many variations for these badges as there were for WW2 SAS wings and beret badges ie infinite.

Yes there are indeed quite a few possible variations, and if those who have LRDG badges that can be verified as genuine, would only step forward and share, it would be a perfect world.

Originally Posted by lifeochil

It is a very high probability that the LRDG badge sold on ebay by Steve Wende is a fake.

The only thing stacked against Steve Wende’s badges so far is opinions, and none of those who have openly called it a fake, have shared their own genuine LRDG badges for us to make comparisons.

Originally Posted by lifeochil

I'll leave the discussion because I'm not interested in debates that don't prove anything. I'm only interested in opinions if they lead to facts or the truth not suppositions and probabilities. I must say in parts it has been interesting.

You cant leave, I was hoping you were going to make your big reveal that you mentioned in post #57.
If we all add to the information pile we might just get to the bottom of the LRDG badge variation enigma.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

I am of the opinion that the LRDG title that was condemned earlier in this thread may in fact be an original.
I have compiled an image data base of over 18 accepted as original LRDG titles. Unfortunately I am unable to attach these images due to copyright and not having consent to do so.
I have noted that they all differ and even the matching pairs, although not dissimilar, do differ from one another. This title however is not dissimilar and compares favorably with the shape, color, size of lettering and stitching used in many of the known variants.
I have included an earlier image of this title as it was presented a few years back on auction.
I am open to anyone persuading me otherwise.

A bit of a hard one to make a call on, as it is not the usual slip on that was issued to the ordinary ranks.
Non slip on suggests to me that it is an officers issue, and the most obvious question is why is it still not sewn to the shoulder board?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Picture of a known Association badge attached.

Cheers Edy

I would be most interested to see a picture showing the back of this badge.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

I don't agree that you have supplied any relevant information that proves my badge is die cast.

I have. Clearly you’re either unwilling or unable to see the difference. If the latter I would perhaps suggest collecting metal badges might not be for you.

Hopefully Alan doesn’t mind me using a pic of his badge. Look at the edge of his Wandsworth badge... it has a depressed edge/rim from the reverse stamp. Even on the scroll and central circular disc where there is no/almost non reverse detail.

This is very, very clearly a stamp.

Those LRDG badges have flat edges to the badges because they are die CAST. There is no rim/raised edge as they have NOT been stamped. The hollow behind the scorpion is from the die casting. This is similar to the 13th/18th Hussars badge I showed in post #91 behind the diagonal scroll.

Here it is next to Steve Conway’s die cast badges. Hopefully he doesn’t mind me using them to demonstrate. (Please let me know if you do Steve and I’ll remove).

If you cannot see the differences then there’s not a lot more I can do.

[atillathenunns]

While at the badge makers on Friday, who only do die stamping, no casting at all, I made sure that I had all my facts right.
You can stamp a brass sheet into a negative die that will leave a perfectly flat back or slightly indented, this is a fact.
I don't see any point to your trying to match my or Steve's badge to Alan's badge.

However, there is a Wellington badge meet this afternoon, and I have asked Steve Conway to bring his badge to compare with mine.

Lastly, I will however also match my badge to a a couple of "known/Genuine" die-cast LRDG badges, to see how it stacks up, if they are the same we should see some obvious similarities in their construction, or we will see some obvious differences.

Luke I look forward to you posting some images of your own collection of of genuine LRDG badges for us to see where you draw your comparisons from.

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by Luke H

I have. Clearly you’re either unwilling or unable to see the difference. If the latter I would perhaps suggest collecting metal badges might not be for you.

Hopefully Alan doesn’t mind me using a pic of his badge. Look at the edge of his Wandsworth badge... it has a depressed edge/rim from the reverse stamp. Even on the scroll and central circular disc where there is no/almost non reverse detail.

This is very, very clearly a stamp.

Those LRDG badges have flat edges to the badges because they are die CAST. There is no rim/raised edge as they have NOT been stamped. The hollow behind the scorpion is from the die casting. This is similar to the 13th/18th Hussars badge I showed in post #91 behind the diagonal scroll.

Here it is next to Steve Conway’s die cast badges. Hopefully he doesn’t mind me using them to demonstrate. (Please let me know if you do Steve and I’ll remove).

If you cannot see the differences then there’s not a lot more I can do.

Genuine question. Can a badge be die stamped and have a flat back, in other words have no imprint in the reverse?

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

The only thing stacked against Steve Wende’s badges so far is opinions, and none of those who have openly called it a fake, have shared their own genuine LRDG badges for us to make comparisons.

Opinions form the basis of most investigations. A number of items are decided 'genuine' by people's opinions and their agreements with others with no actual photographic or written proof that they are indeed genuine. Some of these people then get their noses out of joint when their opinions are questioned.

You cant leave, I was hoping you were going to make your big reveal that you mentioned in post #57.
If we all add to the information pile we might just get to the bottom of the LRDG badge variation enigma.

There will be no big revelation of who I have spoken to. If they're on the forum and wish to say something then I'm sure they will. I lean towards what they believe but then I might know other things.

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

I would be most interested to see a picture showing the back of this badge.

Hi Brent, this is the Association badge in the LRDG RHODESIA. I will ask for a photo of the back.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by lifeochil

Genuine question. Can a badge be die stamped and have a flat back, in other words have no imprint in the reverse?

Genuine answer. Yes, I have supplied a photo of a die stamped badge with flat back in post #124.

The following WW1 NZ Pioneer badges are all British made and are all die struck, you could say there are some design similarities to the die struck LRDG badges.

NZ Pioneer Battalion obverse.jpgNZ Pioneer Battalion reverse.jpg

NZ Pioneer Battalion obverse 2.jpgNZ Pioneer Battalion reverse 2.jpg

This one is worth showing as it shows multiple strikes were used.

s-l1600 (9)m.jpg