Designation error?

[Bill A]

Ken's post re the 31st (Alberta) Recce Regt had me checking Mazeas again. There may be another error. Mazeas labels C26 as the 15th Canadian Light Horse. Other references including Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army list it as the 15th Alberta Light Horse. The Mazeas title appears to be an error.

[DavidS]

Stewart's Concise Lineages calls it 15th Canadian L.H. (amalgamation of the 15th Canadian Light Horse and South Alberta Horse in 1936), and not designated South Alberta L.H. until 1958. Mazeas's militia book calls the original 15th Light Horse, with basically the same badge as through WWII. "SAHL" doesn't replace the "15LH" on the badge until the Q.C. version, does it? So that would match both Stewart and Mazeas. If someone has a copy of Donald Graves' Century of Service, maybe they can check, but I'd guess it was a popular, and erroneous, title, and that you don't need to add more ink to your abused Maz copy.

[Bill A]

Hi David, On page 44 of Stewart, the unit is listed as the 15th Alberta Light Horse after the amalgamation in 1936. It was the 15th Canadian Light Horse 1920 - 1936. The ordnance stores list of 1942, has the slip-on abbreviation as XV A.L.H., which would be the official designation.

[Phillip Herring]

From The Regiments and Corps of The Canadian Army. Page 91

The 15th Canadian Light Horse was authorized on 3 Jul 1905 as "The 15th Light Horse". It was redesignated "15th Canadian Light Horse", 15 Mar 1920. On 16 Feb 1936 it was amalgamated with The South Alberta Light Horse to form the "15th Alberta Light Horse".

Phil

[Bill A]

Hi Phil, That was the notation I had indicated in the first post. From this and the ordnance stores list, I think it can be concluded that the naming for C26 is in error.

[DavidS]

From the National Defense web site:

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The South Alberta Light Horse originated in Calgary, Alberta on 3 July 1905, when 'The 15th Light Horse' was authorized to be formed.1 It was redesignated the '15th Canadian Light Horse' on 15 March 1920.2 On 16 February 1936, it was amalgamated with 'The South Alberta Horse' (see below) and redesignated the '15th Alberta Light Horse'.3 It was redesignated the '15th (Reserve) Alberta Light Horse' on 7 November 1940.4 On 1 April 1946, it was amalgamated with the '22nd (Reserve) Field Battery, RCA' (see below), converted to artillery, and redesignated the '68th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, RCA'.5 On 28 September 1954, it was amalgamated with 'The South Alberta Regiment' (see below) and the '41st Anti-Tank Regiment (Self-Propelled), RCA' (see below) and redesignated 'The South Alberta Light Horse (29th Armoured Regiment)'.6 It was redesignated : 'The South Alberta Light Horse' on 19 May 1958;7 'The South Alberta Light Horse (RCAC)' on 7 October 1985;8 and 'The South Alberta Light Horse' on 14 August 1997.9 On 31 May 2006, it was amalgamated with the '19th Alberta Dragoons' (see below), retaining the same designation.10

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Soooo, as for Mazeas, it's correct, inasmuch as from 1920-1936 it was the 15th Canadian Light Horse. Since there doesn't appear to be a K.C. "SALH" badge, I guess whatever they were called after 1936 doesn't matter in his book, unless you want to scribble "redesignated 15th Alberta Light Horse/15th (Reserve) Alberta Light Horse" under the drawing.

[Bill A]

Wow. If that is the DND site, they need to do some work. They completely ignore the mobilization of 31st Recce Regt.
There wasn't a SALH during the period in question, and with the 20-36 designation as 15 CLH I will modify the Mazeas appropriately.

[Phillip Herring]

Bill,

The operational history is separate from the organizational history, just like the book.

From the web site:

The Second World War
The 15th Alberta Light Horse mobilized the '31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Battalion, CAC, CASF' for active service on 18 March 1942.119 It was redesignated the '31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Regiment, CAC, CASF' on 8 June 1942.120 This regiment served in Canada in a home defence role as part of Pacific Command.121 It embarked on 31 January 1945 for Britain, where it provided reinforcements to the Canadian Army in the field.122 The regiment was disbanded on 15 February 1945.123

Phil

[Bill A]

Sorry, I am out of the loop on this somehow. Which book is the reference for the web page? Graves?

[Phillip Herring]

Bill,

Follow DavidS's link to the DHH site. The lineages of the regiments are really an updated version of the book The Regiments and Corps of The Canadian Army.

Phil

[Bill A]

Thanks for the explanation. Still learning.
This thread raises another question. I am not sure if this applies to any other units without an indepth analysis of their lineage. But, at what point in the history of the unit should the designation for Mazeas be taken?

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Thanks for the explanation. Still learning.
This thread raises another question. I am not sure if this applies to any other units without an indepth analysis of their lineage. But, at what point in the history of the unit should the designation for Mazeas be taken?

Well, his book is Canadian Insignia, 1920-1950, so it isn't really a singe point in time snapshot. My take is that the period he covered is actually from the big Spring 1920 military reorganization (hence the absence of certain 1920s badges like the 21st Alberta Hussars, which disappeared during that reorganization), to the end of 1949, and he is looking at actual badges rather than lineages after the fact, esp. if the insignia did not change. Maybe better questions might be, are there any insignia not included in cases like this 15th Light Horse/South Alberta Light Horse re-designation (badges, shoulders, etc.) that are not illustrated in the book? If there are, it's an issue/oversight; if not, well, I'd just go back to adding the re-designations under the listing. If you adopt a single date look, wouldn't you lose 25-30% of the book for units no longer in existence at that time, or which were yet to be?

[Phillip Herring]

Mazeas' dates and badges don't necessarily cover the whole period 1920-1950.
Many units were converted to artillery in 1936, and still more in 1946. It is up to the individual to do further research into the units that are of interest.
The DHH site gives some excellent information on the lineages of of Canadian units. Use it!!!

Phil

[Bill A]

Poorly phrased question on my part David. Perhaps the book should include all the designations under which that badge was worn. The evolution of some units lead to several badge issues, which he covers well. For example the Carleton & York, or the PLDG / 4 PLDG. We know that Mazeas has included badges that shouldn't be in there, with the bigger question, which ones are missing?
For many collectors who focus only on the Second World War, the 15 CLH designation can be confusing, and in fact is not correct.
Phil, the lineages on DND are relatively new, and not as easy to use as a portable "pocket guide". Unfortunately, there are far too many collectors that are only interested in the badge and don't delve into the history of the unit. I agree that collectors should put some more time into understanding what it is they are collecting. It would a great asset if that lineages web site was available in print form as well. (I don't mean downloaded pdf's, but a real bound book.)

[Phillip Herring]

Bill,

The book The Regiments and Corps of The Canadian Army does give the lineages, but it is restricted to Infantry and Armoured/Cavalry regiments, and it only goes to 1964.
It takes a bit of delving to find various units and it only covers units in existence at the time of publication and their antecedents.
It works for me because I (try to) limit myself to BC units. For other collectors it gets more complicated.

Phil