WWI South Wales Borderers Cap Badge?

[Forester93]

Hi,

I’ve come across this for sale, I believe it to be a genuine WWI find but unfortunately my knowledge in dating SWB cap badges is lacking.

Could someone verify but if possible also teach me on what to look out for.

Cheers.

6D2519A5-02B8-46AF-9EDF-7FA2217D759C.jpg FC645D8F-4BE5-4EF4-9FCB-0F0D34C9E34B.jpg

[cbuehler]

That is not likely a WW1 era SWB badge. The slider and lack of a brazing hole and overall somewhat weak strike would indicate your badge to be much later.
I have pictured a badge which would be typical of an expected WW1 era badge, although mine may be a bit earlier.
Note the longer slider with a crimp mark at the bend and a brazing hole, or slot, behind the Sphinx.

CB

[wardog]

Hello CB. Looks like yours also has brazing holes at the rear or the W and the B, possibly/likely on the S as well- all near the edge of the badge. Nice example. Regards, Paul.

[Frank Kelley]

Just from the photographs, I would have thought that your badge is not typical of a Great War era badge either, it appears to be an Edwardian example.

Originally Posted by cbuehler

That is not likely a WW1 era SWB badge. The slider and lack of a brazing hole and overall somewhat weak strike would indicate your badge to be much later.
I have pictured a badge which would be typical of an expected WW1 era badge, although mine may be a bit earlier.
Note the longer slider with a crimp mark at the bend and a brazing hole, or slot, behind the Sphinx.

CB

[Frank Kelley]

I think if it were me, I'd simply get a good 1916 Economy example, if it's the Great War you are interested in.

Originally Posted by Forester93

Hi,

I’ve come across this for sale, I believe it to be a genuine WWI find but unfortunately my knowledge in dating SWB cap badges is lacking.

Could someone verify but if possible also teach me on what to look out for.

Cheers.

Attachment 222697 Attachment 222698

[cbuehler]

An Edwardian made badge would be precisely among the most commonly worn badges in the war, particularly in the early part.
The 1916 economy would probably have seen even less use due to limited manufacture and issue nearly half way through the war, and unpopularity among the soldiers. I read somewhere that some battalions of regiments that did have economy badges authorized, never actually received or wore any.

CB

[Forester93]

Cheers all for the information,

I still would like to own a WWI bi metal SWB cap badge so will continue to look for one however for the mean time I’ll find an economy one.

Can I have someone’s opinion on these please, I’m suspicious of the second one.

C55B81FF-FD32-42D2-AF12-FE6BC5958B52.jpg 21804F51-154F-4BE0-9608-DAE07A94CB8B.jpg

AEC7D044-D9FD-4AC4-95A6-E423CA33F921.jpg 6A416BA7-A9C9-48AB-977D-B988479ED0BC.jpg


CB- that’s a very interesting fact that the economy badges where likely never worn, I’m very interested in this so will try to find some more information.

[cbuehler]

The top, more toned, badge looks like it might be ok. The bottom one no.
Not to say that economy badges were not worn; of course they were. But they never completely replaced the standard issue.
The standard bi-metal was still likely the most common for all regiments during the war, and battalions must have had a mix of both in wear at the same time. There are many on this forum that will know much more about this.
A standard bi-metal WW1 era SWB is not difficult to find at all.

CB

[Frank Kelley]

Given that the badge you show in post number two would be circa 1903-1906, worn by both regular battalions, it is clearly not something that you would expect to see very much of in the Great War, the vast majority of members of the regiment who had originally been issued with them would have been transferred to the Army Reserve and some ultimately discharged by 1914.
Those reservists who were recalled in 1914 and who did then subsequently serve within their original regiment, not all did, would have been issued with a different badge, quite frankly, I doubt if there was even a handful of those Edwardian badges left to issue.
The regiment expanded during the Great War and even when you take into account the three Brecknockshire battalions, you are still left with the 4th to 15th Service Battalions, as well as the original 1st and 2nd Battalions.
If the 1916 Economy badges were not worn to the extent of the pre 1906 badges, why are there so many of them, why are they often found in such worn condition, what do you think men from the fourteen battalions actually did wear during the Great War?

Originally Posted by cbuehler

An Edwardian made badge would be precisely among the most commonly worn badges in the war, particularly in the early part.
The 1916 economy would probably have seen even less use due to limited manufacture and issue nearly half way through the war, and unpopularity among the soldiers. I read somewhere that some battalions of regiments that did have economy badges authorized, never actually received or wore any.

CB

[Frank Kelley]

The second one is a very typical example and rather nicer than the first, moreover, the fact is that the regiment certainly did wear their 1916 Economy badges during the Great War.

Originally Posted by Forester93

Cheers all for the information,

I still would like to own a WWI bi metal SWB cap badge so will continue to look for one however for the mean time I’ll find an economy one.

Can I have someone’s opinion on these please, I’m suspicious of the second one.

Attachment 222761 Attachment 222762

Attachment 222763 Attachment 222765


CB- that’s a very interesting fact that the economy badges where likely never worn, I’m very interested in this so will try to find some more information.

[cbuehler]

Not to be argumentative, but I think you are interpreting my response to this a little to narrowly. All your points are quite valid, although not sure about the manufacture date you specify for my badge.
The point I was making is that the 1916 badges in general, not just for the SWB, were only a limited make ( It is my understanding that not all manufacturers made them ) and issue in the second half of the war.
In my opinion, 1916 badges are just a variant of a ww1 type badge.
Actually, the few 1916 badges I have show little use and two appear to be unused.
The second badge you mentioned might be ok, but I dont like the slider and missing fretting around the letters, which is why I prefer the 1st top example.
CB

[Alan O]

It's worth knowing that the 1916 economy badge production may well have stopped in 1919 but their issue continued will into the 1920's as old stocks were to be used up before bi-metal ones were issued.

The same thing happened post WW2 with plastic badges being issued, and worn, into the late 1940's and early '50's.

There is no definitive proof but the balance of probability is that the badge in post 1 is a later issue judging by the construction and shape of the vertical shank.

[Frank Kelley]

Well quite, I particularly like the 1916 badges for this regiment, I would have thought it would not be unusual to encounter whole companies wearing them by the summer of 1917.
I agree the badge in post number one is not the best, the badge in post number two is actually a scarce example, easy to find on lugs, but, far harder with that distinctive shank, if only they had been worn throughout the Great War, as suggested in posts two and six, they might have been ten a penny now, sadly the reverse is true.

Originally Posted by Alan O

It's worth knowing that the 1916 economy badge production may well have stopped in 1919 but their issue continued will into the 1920's as old stocks were to be used up before bi-metal ones were issued.

The same thing happened post WW2 with plastic badges being issued, and worn, into the late 1940's and early '50's.

There is no definitive proof but the balance of probability is that the badge in post 1 is a later issue judging by the construction and shape of the vertical shank.