Parachute Regiment

[arrestingu]

My original gaunt example.

[pioneercorps]

Originally Posted by Arnhem Jim

Hello Jim,
Several experts from the forum have provided extensive guidance on the regimental cap badge of the Parachute Regiment. Over time, and with their permission and encouragement, I've compiled an article incorporating their expertise on the subject. You may want to glance at the following;

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2011/0...cap-badge.html


Best regards,
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

Hello Arnhem Jim

I've tried taking a quality image photo of my Parachute Regiment, but I cant take one by using my phone camera, I'm trying to sort this out.

Would it be OK for me to add a photo to this thread, if/when I do have a better quality image.

Regards
Gerwyn

[Arnhem Jim]

Hello Gerwyn,
If you are talking about my blog page article, have no objections whatsoever. I believe you can attach it to the COMMENTS on the article, or send it to this thread.
Regards,
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

[pioneercorps]

Originally Posted by Arnhem Jim

Hello Gerwyn,
If you are talking about my blog page article, have no objections whatsoever. I believe you can attach it to the COMMENTS on the article, or send it to this thread.
Regards,
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

Hello Arnhem Jim
Thank you for replying.
I opened your link, which had good quality pictures of the Parachute Badge, showing the genuine ones, and what to look for in the fake ones, the slider on mine covers the centre.
I hope to get better quality photos sorted by Sunday.
I will post it in this thread
Regards
Gerwyn

[tcrown]

Originally Posted by arrestingu

My original gaunt example.

I would say that your badge was likely struck with an original die made by Gaunt. This doesn’t mean it was originally issued to parachute forces.

A few facts:
- QC Parachute Regiment badges were introduced in Aug 1955 struck on base metals and equipped with lugs;
- Maroon berets with a backing pocket for the badge started to be issued in 1955;
- The ordnance issue-type anodised or ‘staybrite’ badge was adopted in the early 60s. These badges were produced either with lugs or slider;
- The ‘staybrite’ badge was not popular amongst parachute forces which created particularly in the 60s a strong demand for QC old pattern metal base privately purchased.

Can we imagine a shortage of QC metal badge in the 60s that would have led to large restrike/conversion of KC badges? It seems to me unlikely.

Another explanation could be KC restrikes with sliders being produced for veterans or collectors simply because after 1955, army berets were issued with slider pockets.

An original badge for me is either ordnance issued or an offer for private purchase to members of armed forces once approved by Regimental authority. KC badges with slider don’t fall in either of these.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by tcrown

I would say that your badge was likely struck with an original die made by Gaunt. This doesn’t mean it was originally issued to parachute forces.

A few facts:
- QC Parachute Regiment badges were introduced in Aug 1955 struck on base metals and equipped with lugs;
- Maroon berets with a backing pocket for the badge started to be issued in 1955;
- The ordnance issue-type anodised or ‘staybrite’ badge was adopted in the early 60s. These badges were produced either with lugs or slider;
- The ‘staybrite’ badge was not popular amongst parachute forces which created particularly in the 60s a strong demand for QC old pattern metal base privately purchased.

Can we imagine a shortage of QC metal badge in the 60s that would have led to large restrike/conversion of KC badges? It seems to me unlikely.

Another explanation could be KC restrikes with sliders being produced for veterans or collectors simply because after 1955, army berets were issued with slider pockets.

An original badge for me is either ordnance issued or an offer for private purchase to members of armed forces once approved by Regimental authority. KC badges with slider don’t fall in either of these.

If you claim the KC Gaunt die has been restruck then woe betide every collector who has an example as it could be a restike on loops… indeed many of the slidered Gaunt badges bear scars from conversion from loops. Which would be a very odd thing for a faker to do.

That I am yet to see any KC Gaunt die badges with either Gaunt B’ham marked slider or the 15mm fake mark makes me believe they are not restrikes and have not been restruck from the original die.

The question for me would be what was being made and issued late 1940s - 1954?

And does a beret having a slider pocket from a certain date necessarily mean badges were not issued with sliders before then. Not necessarily in my view.

[tcrown]

From the time of their original introduction, cap badges for parachute forces (AAC or Parachute Regiment) were designed with lugs. This doesn’t mean that badges of other units attached to Airborne Forces didn’t have sliders (RAMC, RA to name a few)
We have evidence that paratroopers complained about the excessive loss of badges due to the slider type of fixture (‘the prong type fixing is insecure. The badge is easily lost when jumping with the beret rolled, and the necessary stitching on the beret is unsightly’ RHQ Para Sept 1960, source Lock p206).

I doubt that KC para badges with slider were adopted in large number by parachute forces in the 1950s simply because plenty of KC badges with lugs existed at the time and had been proven satisfactory for more than a decade. Also, the QC para badges were introduced first with lugs in 1955 which is another indication that sliders were not favored then by parachute forces.
With respect to berets, I have to correct my statement about the introduction of backing pocket for the badge. It seems that it could have been as early as 1953 even earlier. I misinterpreted O. Lock’s comments in his book ‘Airborne Headdress on p79. I also saw this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304852049...b306%7Ciid%3A1

Unfortunately, we can’t draw any conclusion. We can’t exclude the possibility that KC para badges with sliders were worn in the 1950s.

[pioneercorps]

Originally Posted by Arnhem Jim

Hello Jim,
Several experts from the forum have provided extensive guidance on the regimental cap badge of the Parachute Regiment. Over time, and with their permission and encouragement, I've compiled an article incorporating their expertise on the subject. You may want to glance at the following;

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2011/0...cap-badge.html


Best regards,
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

Hello Arnhem Jim

Here are my Para badge photos.

PARA1.jpg

PARA3.jpg

PARA4.jpg

PARA5.jpg
Sorry about the the top two being upside down, in my pictures their facing down.
Regards
Gerwyn

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by pioneercorps

Hello Arnhem Jim

Here are my Para badge photos.

Sorry about the the top two being upside down, in my pictures they’re facing down.
Regards
Gerwyn

A fake from the common fake die.

[pioneercorps]

Thank you Luke.
Please can you tell me were to look, to see where the difference his between a genuine one, and a fake one.
Regards
Gerwyn

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by tcrown

From the time of their original introduction, cap badges for parachute forces (AAC or Parachute Regiment) were designed with lugs. This doesn’t mean that badges of other units attached to Airborne Forces didn’t have sliders (RAMC, RA to name a few)
We have evidence that paratroopers complained about the excessive loss of badges due to the slider type of fixture (‘the prong type fixing is insecure. The badge is easily lost when jumping with the beret rolled, and the necessary stitching on the beret is unsightly’ RHQ Para Sept 1960, source Lock p206).

I doubt that KC para badges with slider were adopted in large number by parachute forces in the 1950s simply because plenty of KC badges with lugs existed at the time and had been proven satisfactory for more than a decade. Also, the QC para badges were introduced first with lugs in 1955 which is another indication that sliders were not favored then by parachute forces.
With respect to berets, I have to correct my statement about the introduction of backing pocket for the badge. It seems that it could have been as early as 1953 even earlier. I misinterpreted O. Lock’s comments in his book ‘Airborne Headdress on p79. I also saw this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304852049...b306%7Ciid%3A1

Unfortunately, we can’t draw any conclusion. We can’t exclude the possibility that KC para badges with sliders were worn in the 1950s.

KC Gaunt slidered examples are scarce. Even to date I’ve only seen a handful in comparison to the thousands of looped examples.

How do you know in the 1950s that plenty of badges existed with lugs? From 1943-45 the Para plastic economy badge was authorised and produced in the high thousands (118,456). During that time I’d surmise the WO would not be ordering WM badges or that would defeat the purpose. I’d also expect existing stocks of WM badges would be issued before reverting to the plastic firstly for economic reasons and second that I expect they were preferred.

So question remains, when post WW2 did the WO decide to order more WM badges and what did these order(s) look like. By 1948 only 3 regular Battalions remained so orders may have been comparatively small.

The ORs KC Glider Pilot Regiment badges which were sealed post WW2 are only (genuine ones) found on a slider and something to consider. Many are marked Firmin, like we see post war with the increasing frequency of MM’ed sliders.

No one here apart from yourself appears to try exclude that KC Para badges with sliders were genuine or worn post WW2. If you search the forum you will find thread back as far as 2008 citing them as being genuine post war.

[Alan O]

The use of plastic badges post was was haphazard but it is safe to say that they were still being issued in the late 40s and early 50's especially the National Servicemen. There are a few photos on the forum of plastic badges still worn alongside metal ones in the 50s. This was particularly the case for the Corps.

Infantry battalions however were a different matter. The KRRC seemed to have liked theirs so much they even had a Q/C one made. The Scots Battalions hated them and even in WW2 told their soldiers to buy their own badges: the Camerons is a very scarce badge: I suspect most were thrown away. The BW wore the hackle on its own so the plastic badges were not widely worn: although i understand the HG did wear them.

Para Regt certainly wore them in 1944-5 as photos show but I don't know whether this continued post war. I would suspect they were keen to return to metal ones.

[pioneercorps]

Originally Posted by Luke H

KC Gaunt slidered examples are scarce. Even to date I’ve only seen a handful in comparison to the thousands of looped examples.

How do you know in the 1950s that plenty of badges existed with lugs? From 1943-45 the Para plastic economy badge was authorised and produced in the high thousands (118,456). During that time I’d surmise the WO would not be ordering WM badges or that would defeat the purpose. I’d also expect existing stocks of WM badges would be issued before reverting to the plastic firstly for economic reasons and second that I expect they were preferred.

So question remains, when post WW2 did the WO decide to order more WM badges and what did these order(s) look like. By 1948 only 3 regular Battalions remained so orders may have been comparatively small.

The ORs KC Glider Pilot Regiment badges which were sealed post WW2 are only (genuine ones) found on a slider and something to consider. Many are marked Firmin, like we see post war with the increasing frequency of MM’ed sliders.

No one here apart from yourself appears to try exclude that KC Para badges with sliders were genuine or worn post WW2. If you search the forum you will find thread back as far as 2008 citing them as being genuine post war.

Hello Luke
Thank you for this information Luke.
I picked it up at a car boot in Stormy Down, it was in a box with other cap badges, I offered the seller £5 for the lot, and he took it.
I was with my RBL Branch in Cardiff where we where going to take part in a march, where we assembled before we marched, we were all given this pin Commemoration WW11 1945 to 2005, anyone else there.
There was an ex Para there with a Staybrite Queens Crown badge in his beret, when I mentioned to him that I had an all brass Kinks Crown one with a slider, he said he wore one, and asked me if I wanted to sell it to him, if I had it with me, I would have given him it, he give me his phone number which I put in my pocket and forgot all about it, well it was a long day with a few drinks.
Gerwyn
IMG_20230328_0003.jpg

[pioneercorps]

Originally Posted by Alan O

The use of plastic badges post was was haphazard but it is safe to say that they were still being issued in the late 40s and early 50's especially the National Servicemen. There are a few photos on the forum of plastic badges still worn alongside metal ones in the 50s. This was particularly the case for the Corps.

Infantry battalions however were a different matter. The KRRC seemed to have liked theirs so much they even had a Q/C one made. The Scots Battalions hated them and even in WW2 told their soldiers to buy their own badges: the Camerons is a very scarce badge: I suspect most were thrown away. The BW wore the hackle on its own so the plastic badges were not widely worn: although i understand the HG did wear them.

Para Regt certainly wore them in 1944-5 as photos show but I don't know whether this continued post war. I would suspect they were keen to return to metal ones.

Thank you for your information Alan, I have John Gaylor's third edition, I went to my local Library to see if they had any books on cap badges, hoping to come away with the Kipling and King V1. I came away with John Gaylor's seventh edition, he mentions that the plastic cap badge came out in 1941
Regards
Gerwyn

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by pioneercorps

Thank you Luke.
Please can you tell me were to look, to see where the difference his between a genuine one, and a fake one.
Regards
Gerwyn

here