Another Pioneer Public Battalion works theory

[Fatherofthree]

Greetings.
Over the years I have had the opportunity to look at quite a few photos of Middlesex Regiment chaps, including several wearing Pioneer collar badges.
None of them appeared to show any soldier wearing the PWB double scrolled badge.

From this I concluded (whether rightly or wrongly) that in fact ‘regular’ soldiers didn’t wear them.

This picture is the band for the 25th, (Reserve Battalion) and clearly shows Lt. Colonel John Ward, M.P the Officer who formed the PWB Battalions.
25th.jpg

Having had a good look at all the badges, it appears to me that a significant number of them appear to have a double scrolled badge, which I believe are PWB.
This can be seen, (hopefully), with these enlargements, (apologies for the bluish colour on some and the fact that my machine turned some the wrong way:-

IMG_7405.jpg IMG_7406.jpg
IMG_7407.jpg IMG_7408.jpg
IMG_7409.jpg IMG_7410.jpg
IMG_7411.jpg

I do appreciate that a couple, of PWB badges shown on this Forum came with provenance that they had belonged to family members, (if I remember correctly, David Moore and another)who had served in one of the PWB Battalions, (18th, 19th 25th or 26th)

Is it possible/plausible that these badge were issued to band members only?
Has any member a picture showing this scarce badge on a soldier other than a bandsman, which will disprove my tenuous theory?
Regards.
Brian.

[cbuehler]

Now this is interesting. What in theory is thought to have been worn and what actually was worn can be very different.
History tells us just as much as we do not know as it does that which we do.

CB

[Luke H]

Excellent investigative work Brian, very well done and thank you. Marvellous to see a photo of it in wear after so many years of searching and debate, your persistence really has paid dividends. Can I ask is the photo dated?

Yes it was David Moore I believe whose relative served in the PWPB and inherited his badge - which for all the world to me looked shaped for a cap and worn. Hopefully he sees this and can add to it.

With many Pals badges they were ordered and issued at or around the time of the units formation in lieu of the standard regimental cap badge. With the PWPB we have an abundance of pictures showing them wearing the standard Middlesex Regiment cap badge so I don’t wonder if here we have a badge commissioned and made latterly sometime after the unit was already equipped. The band could certainly be a viable avenue for a bespoke badge order as band badges were often bought from regimental funds privately and to a different design or quality finish.

It’s perhaps worth noting that quite a few bandsmen in this photo are wearing the standard Middlesex badge so the bespoke PWPB badge is not universal here, which leaves it open to interpretation.

I would say if it is a band only badge then they either had a bloody big band or the sheer numbers of these seen must likely make many post war Gamages badges.

[Fatherofthree]

Thanks chaps.

Luke:

Unfortunately the card isn't dated.

As you know, the 25th Battalion was formed in 1915 from the depot companies of the other three battalions, (18th,19th and 26th), initially it was The 25th, (Garrison Battalion) and on 11th November 1916 it actually became 25th Battalion.

The Battalion sailed for Hong Kong in December 1916 and thence to Siberia in August 1918.......................did the band go with them to either location?

Using my old detective skills, , I suggest that the photo must be post 11th November 1916 and looking at the foliage on the trees behind the band, would have been taken:

either The UK in early Spring, based on the trees in leaf and rose bush and style of fence on the left hand side of the picture.

or possibly in Hong Kong, based on some of the species of tree shown, (Acacias).

(Of the two, I prefer The UK)

Therefore, if the band did go with the remainder of The Battalion and onto Siberia, date taken 11th November 1916 - end of July 1918.

Next poser: was the 25th band formed of musicians from each of the other battalions' bands, (if they each had a band).

If that was the case, that could feasibly explain why there are two different badges being worn, if one band only was issued with them.

Original double scrolled wearers who formed the new 25th Band had them and the intakes from the other Battalions didn't, having been issued with regular Regimental badges.

Well that's my bottle of red wine nebulous theory for tonight.

Regards.

Brian

[Luke H]

Brian,

I looked the Battalion up on the long, long trail after my post. It states the following:

25th (Reserve) Battalion
Formed at Tring in October 1915 from the depot companies of 18th, 19th and 26th Bns. Moved to Northampton and in May 1916 on to Aldershot.
1 September 1916 : converted into 25th (Garrison) Bn.
3 November 1916: transferred to 213th Brigade of 71st Division.
11 November 1916: converted into 25th Bn.
22 December 1916: left Brigade and sailed from Devonport, arriving Hong Kong 1 April 1917 although two companies were left at Singapore.
August 1918 : reassembled as a battalion and landed at Vladivostock on 3 August 1918.
Remained in Siberia until September 1919.

Assuming this is correct and I’ve no reason to think otherwise and that I’m interpreting it correctly this would suggest the Bns title changes were:

25th (Reserve) Oct 1915 - 31st Aug 1916
25th (Garrison) 1st Sept 1916 - 10th Nov 1916
25th (Reserve) 11th Nov 1916 - 1919.

I agree it looks like England, potentially Aldershot going by the subject, setting and foliage so May 1916 is a contender.

From a spot of Googling the 25th seemed to have had the WW1 equivalent of the concert party in It Ain’t Half Hot Mum https://gwulo.com/atom/19419 . They look a jolly bunch of fellows!

En route to Hong Kong the 25th’s ship was mined off South Africa, fortunately all survived, and this wonderful roll appears to have survived https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail....=1998-10-286-1 sadly too small to read but it would appear to have a break down of the companies (can see an A, B, C and D but no ‘band’) and every man’s name. Worthy of further research with the NAM perhaps.

There is also an interesting picture here of the NCOs with names:
http://ww1photos.com/Regiments/Middlesex/25th.html it appears some may be wearing the PWPB badge albeit a rather grainy image? It has names. When I get time I may check some of the faces between the two photos.

I wonder if there are any pictures of the Bn in Russia and what they’re wearing there.

Regards,

Luke

*I have included pictures from the links in order this thread is of use once the links inevitably die. If this offends anyone or the image owner I will happily remove them.