72nd Btn CEF

[James G]

Okay you've finally succeeded in recruiting a British Badge collector to collecting CEF badges as well. After seeing all those pictures of Canadian CEF badges I'm hooked. I got hold of a Babins CEF book and today I bought my first Canadian CEF badge.

It is a 72nd Btn CEF badge 46mm in height. It cost me £8. Although I am an experienced British Badge collector I have no idea what to look out for in a good Canadian badge. I have just applied some of my instincts with British badges to this one. The definition of the rear of the badge is very crisp and well struck but no makers name. So any ideas of what I should look out for when collecting CEF badges?

[Voltigeur]

Hello James,CEF badges is not my specialty but, your badge looks OK to me. As added info on this unit, it was created 23/4/16 and was part of the 12th Brigade of the 4th Canadian Division.It shouldn't be mistaken for the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of the Canadian Militia (1912). Some of the canadian colleagues (P.Herring and Paulbear) with more knowledge than me will give you some tips on how to spot originals CEF badges.
Jo

Here's the Militia 72nd's badge
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...omer/072bn.jpg

[James G]

Thanks Voltigeur. I didn't realise this was not the same unit as the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders. I can see I will have to get a book on the Order of Precedence of Canadian units.

James

[Bill A]

Small correction, the 72nd Bn was the Seaforths of Canada. The Seaforth's took the 72 Battalion for mobilization purposes in the CEF, and it was the same as their militia precedence. The CEF battalion wore the 1912 pattern cap badge.
James' badge is a collar. Here is the cap badge...

[Voltigeur]

James, the only source on the Order of Precedence of the Canadian Army, that I know of, is the Concise Lineage of the Canadian Army by Charles H Stewart and that book has been out of print for a very long time. Another suggestion is to use the list from our distinguished colleague The Regimental Rogue, on the perpetuation of the CEF units by Canadian Army units. That's a start.Also you could limit yourself to units that were in the four divisions.
Cheers
Jo

http://regimentalrogue.com/cef_perpe...rpetuation.htm

[Voltigeur]

Thanks Bill for putting me right.
Jo

[James G]

Voltigeur thanks for the link to The Regimental rogue. That will be really useful.
Bill I am still a bit confused. In Babin both the whitemetal badge like yours and the bronzed badge like mine are shown for the 72nd. Does this definitely mean my badge is collar or did they use this as a badge at any stage. The reason I ask is that Babin doesn't show collar badges for any other regiment only cap badges. Or do Canadian collar badges usually have the same design as the cap badge.

[mad4thcef]

Hello,

Congrats on collecting CEF badges!

To clear the air a bit your badge could be a collar or a cap! They were worn as both depending on supply and demand availability etc The maker of this is probably OB Allan they made alot of them!

CEF badges have gone up in price over the last few years so be warned! There a few restrikes or fakes out there! Arty badges and a few others.

I would reccommend getting some good reference books Babins only gives picture of the badge and variations. Try and pick up a Charlton guide 2nd edition on WW1 CDN Infantry Badges it provides more info but take it with a grain of salt its a guide only!

CEF badge collecting provides many twists and turns
If you would like further clarification contact Paulbear he will further substaniate what I have told you here!

He is also a great resource and very knowledgable when it comes to the CEF. I have made a great friend also ! He is on the forum so don't be afraid to contact him !

[LLWill]

I am the person that asked the question on the CEFSG about this badge. I have several of these, in two distinct badge colors. By my measurements thay are 47.1mm in height.

[James G]

Larry,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I think this badge is one I will have to put to one side until I find out more in the future. I am finally of the of the opinion that it may be genuine although there will always be a doubt. so it will go in the "authenticity disputed" box for now

Reasons for suspecting it is genuine

1. It looks right. No one has yet thrown doubt on the look of this badge ( lugs, quality of stamping etc) only on the size.

2. If it is believed not to be genuine due to it's size it can't be a restrike it must be a newly created die in a larger size. This is unlikely because a die would cost thousands of pounds to make and therefore the forger would need to produce loads of fakes. There don't seem to be enough 72nd badges of this size around to indicate that this is so.

3. Babin shows two badges for the 72nd. One is the stags head and one is the badge like yours and mine. Babin lists badges not collars. So perhaps this is the badge he was illustrating.

4. Although the curator of the 72nd museum cannot yet say whether 72nd collars or badges were made in this size he hasn't dismissed the idea.


Reasons for believing it is fake.

Well only one reason really and that is based on the fact that at the moment there is no documentation to show that badges or collars of this size were made for the 72nd.

As a British badge collector this is the first Canadian badge I have bought I hope they aren't all as difficult as this one or i'll have a box of disputed badges and nothing to put on the wall.

James

[TRT]

Have we made any progress on this? I ask because two years ago I bought one from Arctic Medals. This dealer has a v good rep and I doubt would be duped or knowingly sell a fantasy badge. Mine is of darkened copper as above and also of the larger dimensions. Same dealer has another listed currently.

I displayed my badges recently and a knowledgable collector immediately dismissed it as fake.

Any comments appreciated.

TRT

[Bill A]

Hi TRT, Could you image the badge? Without casting aspersions, dealers have been known to make errors. More troubling, the age of some repros is now such that they have been around much longer than many collectors and vendors. And their provenance has disappeared into the mists of time, or their myths have gained the stature of truth.

[whizzbang]

There is an article by Hugh King in "The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society" published in 1994 that describes a fantasy 72nd badge which is a maple leaf version that looks exactly like the collar, only larger. I think the OP badge is one of those. The badge appears in Babin and the article notes this as one of the few errors in the book.

I think I kept a copy of the article, I'll have a look. If not, COLIN17 recently bought my complete set of the journal, maybe we can impose on him to look it out

Many CEF collectors consider the larger 72nd maple leaf badge a fake, myself included.

Cheers, Ian.