Unknown Gibraltar and Montis Insignia Calpe Button

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

Whilst at Farnham Militaria Fair this morning I picked up the following button.
I didn't recognise it at the time but felt I should as it look sos familiar, so took a punt on it.

As you can see it has the upper scroll containing "GIBRALTAR", Over the three turreted Castle & Key, all over a three part scroll : "MONTIS INSIGNIA CALPE".

Gilt - Closed Back
Diameter : 26mm
B/Mark : JENNENS & Co LONDON (PoW)

There are a few Regiments that have the Castle and those Mottos (i.e. Suffolk Regt, Northamptonshire etc.)
As I understand it, generally the Castles with 3 turrets and the key below the castle date it to post 1900 when the design was standardised.

I have been through my Ripley books but can't see it. However, this button is shown in Squires (Plate 19 #26) as the Northamptonshire Regiment - Officer's 1881-1914.

I know the IDs in Squires can be a bit mis-leading at times. Is this Squires identification correct or does somebody else have another ID please?

Many thanks

Ian

[btns]

In my records I have changed its title to "The Suffolk Regiment", 1881-1914, but I do not have good evidence. (I kept the original dates given by Mrs. Squire )
As far as I know the Squire reference is the only one. I have not found it in any of Howard Ripley's books.
Known backmarks are "Best London Make" and "Pitt & Co, 31 Maddox St. London W"

The main reason to change its name was the motto, authorized to the Suffolk Regiment on 2/5/1836 (Parkyn, page 107)
however, the motto has been used by the 56th (West Essex) Regiment of Foot (Parkyn, page 220)

[Jim Maclean]

It seems all 4 English Gibraltar regiments may have the Montis Insignia Calpe motto as it goes with the Castle.

I do though think that The Suffolk Regiment is the more likely.

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

A very nice button, most likely an officers' mess waiters' button, so it will not be of any 'authorised' pattern.

I would agree post 1900 because of the three turreted castle.

I have it recorded as the Northamptonshire Regiment but it could could be the Suffolk Regiment, indeed any of the regiments mentioned which were entitled to the 'Gibraltar' battle honour.

Roger

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

I have just checked my records and I do not think your button is for the Suffolk or the Essex Regiments, both of which had Gibraltar as a battle honour but they both used a different design of officers' mess waiters' button.

I have officers' mess waiters' button for both these regiments and the Suffolk used the castle and motto but had 'XII' even on their King's crown, post 1900 buttons. The Essex Regiment also used the castle and motto but had a scroll 'Pompadours' beneath.

I do think the Northamptonshire Regiment is looking most likely.

If this one is for sale perhaps you would let me know!

Roger

[4966Ian]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the replies. Its an interesting conundrum.

I have to admit - my secret hope was that it was a Mess Waiters button to go in to my collection of Mess Waiter Buttons, but didn't want to put that suggestion forward in my original post in case it influenced other peoples replies.

I will put it in my 'possibles' box as a Mess Waiters Button - but leave the county/Regiment as an unknown (though more likely to be Northamptonshire) and in the mean time do some more digging.

To go with Roger's post above - I have attached pictures of the QVC (2xTowers/Turrets) and Kings Crown (3xTowers/Turrets) versions of the Suffolk Regiment Mess Waiter's Buttons.

If I find anything more out I will update this post.

Roger - Sorry, this 'unknown' button is destined for my collection, but if I come across another I know where to send it.

Thanks again for your ideas and thoughts.

Ian

[Cribyn]

Hello Ian

Just to follow up on your two photos, here is the officers' mess waiters' button for the Essex Regiment. A bit out of focus probably as the light is going here!

Regards
Roger

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Interesting button but a tricky one.

It could be Northamptonshire Regt but both the two regular battalions seem to have gone out of their way to retain their separate identities.

To throw a spanner in the works I have a different Officers Mess Waiters button for each battalion, one is post 1902, the other probably late Victorian/Edwardian.

The two battalions had their own Mess Dress buttons and mufti blazer buttons also.

It could still be Northants though but possibly one of the other "Gibraltar" Regts. It's hard to call with Mess Waiters buttons as some seemed to change every time a new supply was required.

Perhaps all will be revealed in the next Mess Waiters "Button Lines" article, which I'm sure Roger is looking forward to!

David

[davidwyke]

Posted in error ..........

[4966Ian]

Hi David,

Thanks for your thoughts on this query.

I have only seen the following Northamptonshire Mess waiter's button and it is obviously post 1902 and for the 1st Battalion.
(i.e. Kings Crown atop a strap which contains "TALAVERA" with "XLVIII" in the centre).

Button details are:
- Gilt / Open Back
- Diameter = 26.2mm
- Backmark = PITT & Co . 31. MADDOX St LONDON

Was there a QVC version of this?

Also what do the 2nd Battalion buttons look like please. (did they also have a QVC and KC variants)

Many thanks

Ian

[Cribyn]

David

Any chance of photos of the two buttons you mention?

Like Ian, I have the KC version with 'XLVIII' but never seen a QVC version. If this is the waiters' button for the 1st Battalion then it might well make sense that Ian's button is for the 2nd Battalion as the 58th had the Gibraltar battle honour originally.

Roger

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

Wish I could post a photo of them but can't at the moment.

The 1st Bn button Ian has shown above is the one I have - only ever seen a KC version.

The 2nd Bn button I have has the motto / key / 2 turret castle / LV111.

It's not much to go on but all the other "Gibraltar Regt" Mess Waiters buttons I know of are silver plate. The two Northants buttons are both gilt, as is the button in question. Then again, they are open back and Ian's button is closed back.

I think it's certainly possible that Ian's button could have replaced the 2nd Bn button which I've described above.

David

[Cribyn]

Hello All

I have had another look at my 'Northamptonshire' button and whilst it is identical to Ian's, closed back as well, the maker is Pitt & Co, 50 St Martins Lane, London which would make it pre 1895 ish.

Just a thought, but I am wondering if David's - 'LVIII' button is earlier than thought and actually for the original, pre 1881, 58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment of Foot?

Roger

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

My 1st Bn button is open back and Pitt 31 Maddox St., slightly more recent than Roger's.

2nd Bn is also open back and is Firmin 153 Strand so could be pre 1881 58th Foot although I was thinking more 1890's.

I'm beginning to think that Ian's button may well be 2/Northants though!

David

[4966Ian]

Hi there,

Sorry forgot to say that the details of the KC button that I have are as follows:
- Gilt / Open Back
- Diameter = 26.2mm
- Backmark = PITT & Co . 31. MADDOX St LONDON

(I have also amended the post further up for future reference)

Cheers

Ian