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  #1  
Old 09-04-19, 12:58 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Default 4th Battalion (Taranaki Rifles) Wellington Regiment Cap/Collar Badge

Guys,
quick question.
When was the 4th Battalion (Taranaki Rifles) Wellington Regiment Cap and/or Collar worn?
Is it a Volunteer badge, pre-1911 for the 4th Battalion of the Wellington Regiment (Corbet kind of alludes that they changed their name to become post-1911 part of the 11th (Taranaki) Infantry Regiment, so then the 11th's badge was universally adopted?
Or is it post 1911, and they wore it as a distinction from their other comrades in the 11th, and until when (a hard to find badge, so I presume not for long)? Oldham has it in the Post 1911 section of his book.

Attached are a couple of examples of mine to show what I am talking about.

Many thanks in advance
James
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  #2  
Old 10-04-19, 07:21 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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4th Battalion Wellington Rifle Volunteers 1901 to 1911 [Prior to 1901 it was known as the 2nd Battalion Wellington (West Coast) Rifle Volunteers]
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  #3  
Old 11-04-19, 02:29 AM
omok1 omok1 is offline
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Default Into WW1

I would have thought most likely still worn in WW1, as with the large increase in numbers there would not have been sufficient badge. I know this happened FOR CERTAIN with North Auckland Mounted Rifles. I inherited my great uncles military belongings that had been stored in a drawer of the old Singer sewing machine by his sister since his death in 1917. There were tunic buttons,a set of 11th NAMR badges and paybook with misc documents. The "set" of NAMR badges was in fact 2 x III AMR (Boers Head) and 1 x 11th NAMR. He had no service in NAMR prior to 1914 when he joined Territorials, but these were his issued badges, he probably never noticed or took any interest in the difference.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-19, 09:20 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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I am doubtful that the Taranaki Rifles, the Taranaki Guards and the Stratford Rifles, who were all company's of the 4th Battalion Wellington Rifle Volunteers, wore anything except for the bugle horn badge up until 1911.
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  #5  
Old 13-04-19, 08:32 PM
woronora woronora is offline
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I am of the opinion that the 11th Taranaki adopted its antecedent regiment badge design with a change in the number to indicate its post 1911 unit designation. Other units who also adopted modified antecedent badges were the 5th Otago MR, 11th North Auckland MR and the 10 Otago Rifiles Regiments.

John

Last edited by woronora; 14-04-19 at 04:51 AM.
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  #6  
Old 14-04-19, 07:06 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woronora View Post
I am of the opinion that the 11th Taranaki adopted its antecedent regiment badge design with a change in the number to indicate its post 1911 unit designation. Other units who also adopted modified antecedent badges were the 5th Otago MR, 11th North Auckland MR and the 10 Otago Rifiles Regiments.

John
John, it is possible the 11th Taranaki adopted its antecedent regiment badge design, however I have not seen any photographic evidence to support that theory.

I do however have a document signed by Lieutenant Colonel William Malone (Officer Commanding the 4th Battalion) that is dated 4th March 1911, which states This Battalion has no Badge.

Colonel Malone also submitted a badge design for approval which incorporated battle honours and a bottom scroll with 4th Wellington Battalion.

Malones design was approved by General Godley with the alterations that - Honours should not be on badges, suggest omission of circle re in middle of mountain on scroll at foot 11th Taranaki Rifles. There is no such regt as 4th Wellington Battalion.

Thus, as James has rightly pointed out, the IV Battalion Wellington Taranaki Rifles Regiment and the XI Taranaki Rifles Regiment with honour scrolls are somewhat of an enigma.

The following picture of a clean shaven Malone was taken in 1908 during the Wellington district Easter manoeuvres.
As can be seen he is wearing a bugle horn badge with letters NZ on either side.

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  #7  
Old 17-04-19, 07:08 PM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Brent

Thanks for the update. Any ideas when the three different badges arose?

John
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  #8  
Old 21-04-19, 12:49 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woronora View Post
Hi Brent

Thanks for the update. Any ideas when the three different badges arose?

John
Hi John,

I have been seeking the answer to that question for the last 10 years.
The only facts I can give are. –

On the 4th March 1911, Lieutenant Colonel William Malone sent the following sketch to the Officer Commanding the Wellington District for approval.
This was of course before the Regiments were re-numbered.





On the 23rd May 1911, Malone’s adjutant, Lieutenant Lampen sent a letter to the Assistant Adjutant General at District HQ, stating that “The cap & collar are to be the same, only that the collar badge should be a smaller badge (size) than the cap.

On the 17th July 1911, Malone’s adjutant, Captain Lampen sent another letter to the Assistant Adjutant General at District HQ, that included a “Rough sketch of badge for the 11th Regiment, also a photograph of the mountain, from which we desire the badge to be taken from.
Lampen went on to say “I have marked on the photo X, PHANTAMS PEAK, which should be preserved in the badge, as it is a distinct feature of the mountain, & a certain Taranaki sentiment attaches thereto.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate the original revised rough sketch or photo, but the photo would have been like this one.



General Godley, Officer Commanding the NZ Forces, approved the badge for the 11th Regiment (Taranaki Rifles) on the 24th July 1911.

Sadly the IV Battalion Wellington Taranaki Rifles Regiment badge and the XI Taranaki Rifles Regiment badge with honour scrolls still remain an enigma.
Until new evidence is brought to light, I can only speculate that Colonel Malone had the IV Battalion badges manufactured before approval was given regarding their design.

Were they ever worn; only photographic evidence will tell?
However it is possible they may have been allocated to a cadet unit attached to the 11th Regiment, as was done with the triple feather badge of the 13th Regiment, or it might have been as Craig has mentioned, issued to the 11th Territorial Regiment during WW1 due to the shortage of badges.
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  #9  
Old Yesterday, 08:58 AM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Many thanks Brent for your help, at least your info has pointed out that both the banner and 4th Batt couldn't have existed before 1911, so are NOT Volunteer period.
As you have mentioned, maybe these are just Gaunt trial badges, and they jumped the gun before the proper badge was agreed on (like including a hook on some of the 1911 formed badges).
Certainly they have found another use, as the 5 or 6 examples of the 4th Batt I have handled over the years are never in pristine conditioned, and are usually polished or missing the odd lug (though could be overzealous collectors polishing and mounting).

Many thanks again.
James
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