RCAC Regimental flashes

[fearnaught]

Hi, did the two 6th div's have different signs?

[Voltigeur]

Hi fearnaught, yes the Home Defence 6th Div. had a rectangle with a red (top) and blue (bottom) divided diagonally from right top corner to bottom left . Those were worn in pairs, the matching mate had the diagonal line going from upper left to bottom right corner.
The other 6th Division, also called the Canadian Army Pacific Force, had a 6 sided patch with the colours of the 5 Divisions serving overseas. The colours were divided in triangular shapes with black added for the armoured brigades. Also, it came in two sizes, a large one for wear on the BD as a Div. patch and, another smaller that was worn on a Div. patch for those in Europe volunteering foe the war against Japan.

I'm sure someone somehow will post a picture of the patches. The info I just gave you is from the book Canadian Army Formation Signs, 1939-1945 by Charles A. Edwards, pub. in 1987.
Like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Regards.
Jo

[DavidS]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...a-shoulder.htm

Scroll down, down, down. Not a great photo but you get the idea.

[Bill A]

An additional note about Machine Gun Battalions in the Canadian army during WW2. They were part of the Infantry Corps. The Infantry Corps had two types of battalions, 'INFANTRY (MACHINE GUN) BATTALION' as opposed to an 'INFANTRY (RIFLE) BATTALION'.

[Bill A]

Reference the CAPF patch on the Digger site. The patch shown is the small version of the CAPF patch, which volunteers from other formations of the Canadian army were allowed to sewn on over their existing formation patch to show their CAPF volunteer status.
In the illustration, one of the CAPF patch is sewn on correctly, the other is incorrect. Which one is correct?

Please use the Digger site with caution. There are many errors on the web site. (For example on this page alone, 18 Armoured Car 12 Div, or the repro Airborne strip, and repro 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion shoulder title, and why have the Brit formation patches been included on the Canadian page?)

[Voltigeur]

Hi Bill, the CAPF patch on the left (on 1st.Div) is sewn correctly. The other CAPF looks a bit questionable. Probably made in Europe at the end of the war, the colours areyeurkkkkkkkkkkk.
Cheers
Jo

[fearnaught]

Hi, did the Royal Montreal Reg loose the MG in the title when they became armoured?

[Bill A]

Jo has identified the correct use of the CAPF patch. The one on the right is not oriented properly, with the 1 CID panel being parallel to the top of the div patch. The colours appear to be faded or it may be the way the light is reflected to the camera.
Mike, the Royal Montreal Regiment changed thier title when they were converted to armoured recce. This is an important point. Titles must reflect the authorized name of the unit, and they would not have been permitted to wear the MG if they were an armoured regiment. (Note that RMR canvas titles exist for both MG and without MG.)

[DavidS]

Attached are the 1st, 3rd and 5th Division boards from my collection. Each frame is approx. 9 3/4" x 21 1/2" and contains a division patch (repro) inset into the black felt base. The frames are about 1 1/2" deep shadow boxes, so once complete, the whole works is under glass.

The armoured & infantry regiments for each division are arranged in brigades, and brigades by senior to junior regiment. I've also attached close-ups of the 12th Infantry Brigade, which the 4th PLDG were moved to when dismounted in 1944, and which shows on the 5th Div board. I also tossed in a closeup of the 2nd Infantry Brigade so you can see what I do when there are multiple badge examples, like the Seaforths, and of the 8th Infantry Brigade, just 'cause I like that one.

As per my previous post, the 'overseas' divisions are arranged 'as at' May 1945, with some modifications -- like the 12th I.B. in the 5th Div frame. My home defense divisions are as of peak strength in 1943, but are still a work in progress.

[Bill A]

Nice job David. Were the backings on the badges when you acquired them? (QOR, North Shore's)
A question re the 48th, you used the brass example?

[Voltigeur]

David, BRAVO, nice arrangement. A question too. Why the Seaforth Highlanders badge with cypher. I was told it was used in Canada only.
Jo

[DavidS]

For Bill, the backings are not original. It's a bit of a whim on my part, as from the questions I asked on Canuck way back, I don't think backings were used in the field. However, I wanted a bit of colour on the boards, especially for blackened badges like the rifle regiments, so they wouldn't get lost on the black felt. I've used examples from badges with actual backings I've seen, hence the 'centre only' in the North Shore badge.

As for the brass 48th badge, using this one was from both a personal and historical preference. I got this badge along with a few other 1st and 5th Divs (GGHG, Vandoos, Loyal Edmonton and a couple of others) from a fellow in England whose father was in the British army in North Africa in '43/'44. These were all badges he had traded for while there (my guess being with Canadian soldiers having been sent back from Italy/Sicily to the Canadian hospitals there), so they all have a real connection for me to actual individuals who were in theatre, even if I don't have any names.

The Seaforth cipher badge is, as I understand it, the official issue badge which was wholly unpopular and universally loathed by the Seaforths. I've read that they refused to wear it, or would break the Lovat cipher out of it, but I have not heard that it was used only in Canada. Here's a link that has a photo of one cipher badge worn 'in theatre' http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/seaforth_highlanders.htm

[Dwayne H]

Shouldn't the 8NBH badge be the overseas pattern if the arrangements are to be 1945?

Dwayne

[DavidS]

Picky, picky I have one favourite PL Hussars (sans N.B.) version which came from the daughter of an 8th Hussars vet that is just about polished flat. If I ever rebuild this board, I might use both badges, similar to the Seaforths, but when I built this one, I was more interested in the Italian campaign and had intended the badges reflect that (hence the inclusion of the 12th Infantry brigade on that board), rather than NW Europe.

[Wyn vdSchee]

Bill A. and others:
On page 3 of this thread you made the following comment:

Details are small components of the regiments, eg a squadron or even smaller. I am not sure how the "details" were deployed or employed. More research needed on these units.

Details were called out in late August and early September 1939 to guard vital points such as canals, harbours, electrical generating plants, smelting facilities, grain terminals and other installations that might attract saboteurs. Details ranged in size from platoons to battalions, and equivalent. They were all called out in one or two General Orders during the aforementioned time period. Units of all three combat arms. cavalry. artillery and infantry were called out, and I suspect that for the most part they were used in the infantry role of guarding vital points. The phrase used in "Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army" is Details of the Regiment were place on active service on 1 Sep 1939 for local protective duty. Once the Canadian Army was more fully mobilized, the details were stood down, some time in 1941 if memory serves, and the home defence divisions, 6th, 7th and 8th, as well as unattached units, took over the guarding of vital points. Also, once the United States entered the war, the likelihood of German saboteurs crossing the border and attacking vital points diminished considerably.
You will find mention of details called out in some, but not all, regimental histories. Unfortunately, General Orders do not indicate where the details of a battalion or regiment were deployed.
I hope this helps.
Wyn